Official Luthiers Forum!

After reading some threads, particularly Paul Burner's website thread, it got me thinking....
Why do so many hobbyist builders or even beginners are so eager to offer their instruments for sale right after they've build their first few guitars or even their first?

Speaking for myself, my first few guitars were promising but definitely not worth showing anyone let alone sell them...
It took me a good me a good while before I had my own style and before my high self-criticism allowed me to start offering guitars for sale.

I know its a labor of love for many and a good number of builders struggle financially trying to make a living building guitars.

But my question is, Why?

I'd like to know what your aspirations are....

Just curious.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

As I only get one chance to make a debut, I'm holding off about any sort of serious effort in selling my guitars till feel ready. I'm close.

I'm already self employed as a builder of wooden canoes, so I don't NEED to sell the guitars, but I want to slowly ramp it up so that at some point I can start switching over. or at least strike a balance. That and getting my painting back on line.

I can see the thrill of making a few early sales, its very encouraging, it pays for some more material, and helps keep the wife happy, "See, Honey, it's not a total self indulgent waste of time!".

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Peter,

Would I like to sell guitar #3? - you bet.

Do I deserve to sell guitar #3? - that is yet to be seen when it is finished sometime later this year.

Why would i want to sell guitar #?3 - so I can build guitar #4 and hopefully improve my skills.

I'm learning that this "sport" isn't for the faint of pocketbook and I just can't afford to have a few thousand dollars worth of wood in the shape of guitars hanging around my home.

My hope is to sell #3 for just the cost of the materials.

I think I'll have to build at least 10-20 guitars before I even think of charging even $10 for my efforts (above the cost of materials). Right now I just love to build as it is a wonderful balance to my technology driven life - and am loving the learning process.

Why do I want to build #4? - to apply all things I've learned from the mistakes I've made on #3.

It's a vicious circle this game we play - but a fun one.

Did that answer your question?

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

1 Enjoy myself
2 make something of use

Eventually I would like to be able to give people some of my instruments and not be embarrassed if they bring it into a shop or an experienced luthier

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Zac

Anchorage Alaska

Finshed my 1st! See #1 here

Paul,
those were 2 very true statements.....

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

What, stop working for a knuckle-headed boss, so I can work for myself doing something I love? Who'd wanna do that?

IMO, speaking as a new luthier (almost 1 year at it now) who is selling already, it's a money thing. I have to make something on each one I make to partially finance the next one and/or improve the tonewood selection I have available to offer as well as pay back some of the outlay on the specialized tools I have acquired along the way.

Some questions come to mind:

a) How many guitars can you afford to make and give away? Two? Three? Ten? Twenty? (My answer - two maximum)
b) Who judges when an aspiring luthier is "ready"? (My answer - the market/customers)
c) What if you are an accomplished woodworker before you become a luthier, and your first guitar or two are good enough to sell? Surely the seasoned woodworker will be "ready" well before someone entirely new to woodworking, who doesn't yet own the necessary tools and will have to acquire and to learn to use them properly?
d) Do you feel threatened by the recent influx of new luthiers? Is there downward pressure on price as a result of all these newbie luthiers appearing on the scene?

As far as aspirations go, I want to retire in less than 4 years, and I wanted to make sure I have something worthwhile to do in my retirement. It will take at least that long to become a known/established builder, so I decided to start the process as early as possible.

Cheers,
Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

-

I think it is economics driven. If the new builder finds a niche or a customer base , go for it. I didn't sell any until I had about 14 made. I gave most away to friends. I have seen some saleable instruments on the first shot. Lets face it , some people do have a talent for this. Some don't and the market will determine who has that and who doesn't. I agree that you need to be doing this more than a year to think you really have a shot at making a career of it.
I have one guitar in my shop that was built poorly and the neck needed reset. The bridge needed replaced as the builder shaved the bridge to match a bad neck angle . It is a free economy so one can hang a shingle and open a shop. If the builder had talent and can handle the trade great , if he is not a qualified builder , it won't take long to go out of business.
john hall
blues creek guitars

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

It's the Jiminy Cricket thing, very 21st century: wish it upon a star and it will happen. We live in the era of the free lunch… At least virtually, and figuratively… Reality has a bad habit of catching up though.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Don't tar every "newbie"/hobbyist/homebuilder/handbuilder with the same brush....

I have seen and played many guitars in UK stores made by luthiers who have only been "at it" for a short time. "Fit and finish" is exceptional, and the tone is great too. Yes, and even with guitar #3, #4, #5 whatever...

Don't assume all "newbies" at this craft are completely wet behind the ears at the type of skills needed to build guitars. Do a little research and you'll find some guys have had a lifetime's worth of training in fine cabinet making or other woodworking exploits and found guitar making an easy diversification, before judgement is cast.

Before anyone says anything, I do not include myself in this category.

Interesting topic Peter my friend and I share your curiosity as well.

If you don't mind, and since it is related, I would like to add to this thread the following question: What is the definition of a Luthier?

First things first though: I think that it is fine to give or sell for materials costs and perhaps a bit extra early guitars to friends and family. There is value to all here in that someone who you know and perhaps cares about you receives a very special guitar that you toiled to build. In addition you receive feed back from a real life human being. Although our friends and family might not be as critical as any Joe off the street.

But here is where I agree with Tony: If you have aspirations of becoming a professional "guitar builder" (notice I did not say Luthier.....) be very, very careful when you start to sell your guitars. Put one substandard instrument out there and in the hands of an Internet savvy customer who does not have their expectations met and you may be forever ruined in this business........ And worse - you will know that you did not do your best and that to me is the worst of all fates........ I am very hard on myself......

Before considering hanging out your shingle and selling guitars to the general public ask yourself the following questions:

1) Have you built a decent number (insert your own opinion here....) of guitars that have been played and used as beta sites buy actual players AND held up very well?

2) Do you understand how a guitar really works, the forces that interact to produce sound and that attempt to fold the stinkin thing in half?

3) Can you repair any conceivable thing that could go wrong with one of your guitars and offer a level of support that is of a level that you, if rolls were reversed would appreciate receiving from your guitar builder?

4) Are your guitars built with serviceability in mind and have they been inspected and reviewed by an actual "Luthier" for serviceability?

5) Have you attended the big custom guitar shows and spent the time and money to see what the great builders of our time are offering. And if so how does your fit and finish, tone, and value compare - in their opinion not yours?

6) And lastly what are your own expectations from guitar building? Do you want to get rich....... and/or is this a personal passion that brings you great joy AND you believe that you offer real value and a high quality product?

If you needed surgery and the surgeon was in training and botched the job leaving you messed up for life would you believe that oh well everyone has to learn on someone and find a way to finance their education?

The buyers of custom guitars are often hopeful that they are purchasing the finest guitar that they have ever had. They are looking for superb playability, excellent quality, flawless fit and finish, and tone to die for. And there will be a guitar out there that will provide all of this for them. Do you believe that you are capable of producing this guitar, again and again and for most if not all of your customers?

Learning to build decent guitars is not all that difficult but learning to build what someone else specs out and wants is not all that easy and you only have one shot at it too.

Now back to the term Luthier. I am NOT a Luthier and probably will never be one either. To me a Luthier is a highly skilled artisan who has studied for many years to be able to produce AND repair many different sorts of stringed instruments. Even though we use the term Luthier to describe ourselves I kind of cringe when I read or hear this. I also consider it a misrepresentation by some who use this term as well. I know that no harm is intended by some folks who use the term Luthier to describe themselves when they have only built a few guitars, or even 50 guitars but have no experience with other instruments.

We have all taken a drink from the OLF well of knowledge and many of the folks who have helped us out did not have to do so. They were very generous with us in sharing information even knowing in advance that in some cases they were contributing to creating some future competition for themselves.

For those who do decide to enter "guitar building" as a business I believe that we have a duty, as serious as a heart attack, to approach our own eventual selling of guitars as responsibly as possible so as to not harm the industry and out of respect for the generous and highly skilled individuals who shared with us, educated us, and encouraged us to learn to build guitars.

Sell commercially before your chops are there, your fit and finish and playability are excellent and your tone offers real value and you just peed in the canteen for everyone.........

It's a calling for me. It aligns my gifts and strengths with my desires & values. If it isn't full time, okay. Least I won't have to eat shavings for dinner. But I will build "on purpose". Each guitar will be inextricably tied to someone's need. My goal in life is to make myself a blessing to others with the best talents I have. Guitar building is one of the areas that is increasingly taking up more of my passion. I know the apparent "odds" are stacked against me. BUT, I have growing competance, confidence, favor, wisdom, purpose, passion, and direction that is bigger than I alone can muster. I tried to tell myself for years It would never amount to anything. I was wrong. It's amounting to making a difference in people's lives. Now that's enough to get me up out of bed in the morning. Can't ignore that any more. Keep moving forward!

This should by law be posted in every builders shop or at least be required reading

A Pedagog's Lament
Thoughts about learner's impatience


It’s a pity, isn’t it? Nowadays, nobody wants to pay the dues for their art.

Everyone wants to BE something but nobody wants to BECOME something.

Everyone wants to be an expert but no one wants to become one. But you must become before you can be.

It's noble to be a student, a beginner. Whatever happened to the fine old tradition of the "amateur"? The word comes from the French: "lover of.” If you love something, you want to know it deeply. However, that takes time, and effort. And it seems people just don’t want to give things the effort it takes to know something deeply.

I often find myself telling my students: "Drop your illusions. You cannot become a luthier after taking a course. You can pick up some mental tools and some knowledge about the assembly process. But not experience. You can only acquire experience, like you do age. Experience comes after many guitars. Experience comes from studying the masters: Martin, Torres, Macaferri, Aguado, Velazquez--trying to dissect their decisions, studying how they solved the great problems; Then you fail, throw up your hands repeatedly, then pull yourself together and start yet again. You suffer sleepless nights wondering why things failed and what to do next. You devour information: Information about tools, finishes, machinery, abrasives, adhesives--old ways, new ways, and odd ways. Then, somewhere between your fiftieth and hundredth guitar you start to hear it -- because you've been straining to listen for so long: the peculiar song of the soundbox." But as I look into the eyes of some aspirants of the craft, and I see so many eyes, looking back with, "Not me! I'm a special case. Waiting is for idiots. Life is too short." But mastery comes from giving it all the time it takes, whatever that may be.

One student asked me if he could build two guitars in the same course. He had already sold one and wanted to display the other in the new shop he was going to open up! Another student disapproved of my choice of Spanish method slotted-neck construction for his first guitar. He was paying dearly for the course and felt entitled to build a more "advanced" instrument. Could he pearl it and sunburst it besides? He, too, was anxious to make a living as a luthier right after the course. Another young fellow told me he had built two guitars which had come out "pretty good". He could get financing, so if I would agree to be his partner we could both open up this school and... One student had gotten a job as a repairman after showing off the guitar he had made in the course to his employer. Now he wondered, could I tell him how to get this bridge off? The production manager of a guitar company calls: "One of your students is applying for a job. He's got his guitar here and his calling card that says 'expert luthier, fine handcrafted instruments, skilled repairs and restorations'. Is he for real?" My answer: "He's pretty good with his hands but has precious little humility. Which of the two qualities are you looking for?"

Some time ago, one student's third guitar came into the shop. It had a fancy three-color printed label. The action was up in the air, but the guitar had to be rebuilt before it could be adjusted. When the owner returned it to the builder, all he got was a scolding. The owner showed me the builder’s expensive brochure where he said the luthier had been "apprenticed" to me. He called me responsible for his dilemma.

Later, I was feeling badly about all this and I asked someone whom I knew to be a good luthier if I wasn’t creating a batch of mini Frankensteins and loosing them upon the world. Had these people just never learned how to be students, or were they just simply cynical frauds? His advice was that Guitarmaking would surely take care of them in time: there are no old dilettantes or fakers in this business. It is too complex and too elusive a thing to do. It rewards only the pure in heart, the ones that give themselves completely to it, and ask nothing from it, except the privilege to be allowed to continue. Guitarmaking weeds out the faint of heart, the poseurs, the ego trippers. Just like the making of a guitar itself, the making of a guitarmaker takes its own sweet time. Those who are too impatient to sit and wait at the door soon get up, leave, and become insurance trainees, dental technicians, or surfers or something.

Alas, Guitarmaking evokes an aura of seductive mystery, one with a great appeal to the sentimental and illusion-prone. But after the third set of expensive rosewood breaks on the iron or curls up in the mold, or the fourth center seam opens up, or when the finish starts to fisheye on your tenth guitar, the illusion ends. You have to pay your Guitarmaking dues. No one can shield you from those dues.

He continued, reminding me that it is impossible to teach anybody anything. The learner must first learn to be a patient student and then teach himself. Above all, students must supply their own will to persevere through the frustrating obstacles and all the disinformation out there masquerading as the real thing.

A master is someone who has made more mistakes than you, has made mistakes you haven’t made yet, and has learned how to embrace them--thus learning to see them coming before they happen. So you go towards mastery one mistake at a time. How many mistakes can you stand? As many as it takes to be a master. The master has persevered past the errors until he's made all of them.

Although it's cynical to award somebody a "diploma" in Guitarmaking after a single course, as some schools do, students must decide whether to put it on the wall or stash it in a bag with other memorabilia.

And to conclude, and with my apologies to Shakespeare: The evil you do lives on while the good is oft interred with your bones. So don’t sell your first guitars. Or they’ll come back to haunt you.

William Cumpiano

Hesh, I like your thoughts on the matter. Being in the backwoods and hills here in SE Oklahoma, I've never had aspirations of "luthier". But I do have hopes of becoming an accomplished "Luther" , no offense to any real Luther's out there. This is my tongue in cheek, hillbilly sub-category, that can produce a good looking, fine playing instrument that offers an alternative to the factory product. They may never have the prestige of a Stradivarius or even a golden age Martin, but hopefully they will be the tool that helps someone release the music that's in their heart. That is my aspiration. A life well lived, not, a career, that is my goal.

Joe

I haven't been able to read all of this, but before I leave I wanted to say something quickly.

Paul had a week long intensive with Kevin Gallagher. Surely he's ahead of the curve, and at least ahead of me.

If a person can make a guitar that is excellent in every way, why shouldn't they sell it to a player who wants it - and for a price that reflects the excellence of the instrument? Some people are capable of doing that on their first. Like it or not, some people's first stands head and shoulders above the guitars of many established builders who've made dozens or hundreds.

The ability to do that reflects a very high level of talent as well as the time spent learning about wood, glues, how guitars work structurally and acoustically, guitar making history, etc... as well as guitar playing ability, a well trained musical ear, etc... and most likely a good deal of experience in a related field/art/craft. It doesn't just spring from nowhere or come "free". But it can, and does, nevertheless happen on the first guitar built for some individuals.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

James - thanks for the kind words - but here's what I know already...

It is much easier to build a guitar when someone who's built almost 500 is standing next to you coaxing you and mentoring you about each step along the way.

It's a completely different thing to be trying to pull this off on our own (Kyle and me) in our garage and shop.

The most common words out of my mouth seem to be, "I need to remember NOT to do THAT again".

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

James,
this has nothing to do with Paul.
I was just thinking of Hesh that insisted he wouldn't sell a guitar until he had built several (ok, many ) and then other builders that after the first couple of guitars decide to start a "business"
Its nothing to do whether your guitars are good enough or if you are ready to build as a business, but the real question was.... WHY? Do you view this business as PROFITABLE? FUN? A better career?
In order for someone jump in and start a business at a something like Lutherie there have to be some reasons....

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I had aspirations a few years back to build and sell guitars. But the more I learn, the farther away that dream becomes. I'm almost done with my 2nd and it looks pretty darn good, but I have no idea how it will sound. When I show my friends and family, they say "Wow, you should sell those!" "Maybe you could get James Taylor to buy one". I just laugh to myself and think, Yeah right.

I bought my first book (David Russell Young) somewhere around 1978. I thought it would be cool to build a guitar. But I never even considered making a career out of it. I didn't know a guy could do that. I didn't know any luthiers, no internet, I just thought for the most part guitars were made in factories. I should have started right then.

Fast forward about 20 years. I've been working as a designer for Machine Building companies and manufacturing shops related to the automotive industry. I played the game for years, but my enthusiasm has been worn down by corporate B.S. and getting screwed out of my retirement and benefits. I know, No Free Lunch. But you don't have to stab me in the eye with a salad fork. This is when I bought a Martin kit and started dreaming of a way out. Bought Cumpianos book and started buying a few tools. Got it about half done in a year and then life got real busy and it sat in a closet for about 5 years. I got the bug again about 5 years ago. Found a wealth of info on the internet, especially this place, and I finally finished #1.

#2 has taken me 2 years now. Hard to make a living like that. Course I have a "real job" too. But I'm going to keep trying. I want to make different styles and continue to build my skills. I plan on building a parlor for my neice, who just started taking guitar lessons. I want to build a Selmer and an archtop in the near future. Got some plans to do a 12 string, 12 fret, fan fret someday. And I probably should do a classical or two. But I'm sure these will not be for sale. These are guitars I want and can't afford to buy.

I love guitars and love to play and listen to all kinds of music. I haven't had a job I liked in 20 years and retirement is not looking too good right now. So why not try to do something I like for a change. I know now that I've got to work at it and get good at it before I can make any kind of a living.

But for now, the "shingle" stays in the closet, but maybe someday.

Cheers, and thanks for all the help.

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Horton, MI

Absolutely, positively NO!

I have said all of this before, but when your sole output is 12 - 20 guitars a year you do not "compete" with anyone (maybe Martin, Gibson or Taylor but even then I am not sold that they are true competitors). The market demand for your products is always greater than your ability to generate it. Always! The trick is finding it. Provided you run a half way sane marketing program you can find a market for 12 instruments a year.

Some will claim that the "no marketing" approach to marketing has worked for them - despite the fact that it may have worked for a couple of folks we know I am sure it has been the death of many others (remember... we never hear from THOSE buiders.)

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I think this is a GREAT question.

Not when to sell, but why...

Personally, my theory is it is tangible. It seems that nobody comes directly to guitarmaking. Everybody was something else first. Living in a primarily service economy none of us "make" anything. We toil our whole lives and when we look behind us there is nothing to show for all the hours we have logged at work.

Guitarmaking not only provides something of substance, but it is something that holds an aire of mystique, something to be treasured, something to be proud of for generations to come.

I suspect THAT is why many of us do it. It makes some piece of us immortal in some ways.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

This post is not meant to offend anyone here. It is just me stating my own opinion on the matter...

If there's a soul willing to pay for the instrument, why not sell it? It's romantic to think about sitting there and perfecting your craft before producing products for sale, but that's just not reality unless you have an unlimited source of funding.

Sure, I can dig into my pockets and finance a few builds for myself, but it won't be long (maybe 2-3 builds max for me?) before I don't have any more money to continue practicing in my basement... It's not just the cost of the wood that is a continuous expense, but also the cost of upgrading and expanding our toolset. Yes, you can argue that theoretically a person can build a guitar with a knife, but who really wants to do that? Every one of us wants to expand and upgrade. If there's a tool that would help us do something faster, easier, better, or more efficiently, I doubt there is a person that really wouldn't want it if it was within our grasp. For that, we need money and for many of us, it means a need to turn a profit on our investment.

I don't think one should criticize a builder for selling any guitar because ultimately the fact that he sold it obviously means someone was willing to buy it for that price. You can argue principle all you want, but if someone is willing to pay me $5000 for a piece of lint from my belly button, then for the duration of that offer, that piece of lint is worth $5000 and I would most certainly take up that offer as I'm sure anyone else on this forum would as well. Of course I don't believe in any sales practices that would deceive a consumer to believe that the product in front of him is anything more than what it is or my experience is any greater than what it is. For me, that's an entirely different issue altogether.

For me, if someone wanted to buy my first build for $100 more than the cost of the materials that went into it, I'd gladly accept the offer because it would help fund the next build. If someone wanted to offer me $5000 for my first build and was fully aware of my position and the fact that I am a novice, then I would gladly take the $5000 because obviously despite these facts, he felt that the guitar was worth that much to him. Of course the chances of the latter happening are probably really close to zero, but that was just to illustrate a point. If I can sell #1, I'll sell #1. If I have to wait until #5 before someone will buy one, then I'll sell #5. If I have to wait until #20 before I find a buyer, I'll sell #20. Of course I really wouldn't want to have to wait until #20 and I hope that I can start selling soon enough to allow me to keep going (probably closer to #5). That's pretty much all there is to it for me... As for WHY I would sell so early? Because there's someone willing to buy it and so long as someone is buying it, it benefits me to sell it.

So yeah.. that's just my two cents on the subject.

If you can find someone satisfied with your instruments, that is aware of all warts and is still happy, sell it for a fair exchange. So what if it's not perfect, unless you're already wealthy, you won't be able to afford to build more that one or two without recouping some cost. (And unless your clients are wealthy they won't be able to afford one ever). Otherwise it's like saying only the single best guitar maker in the entire world should have the right to sell an instrument, (which one of you is that anyway , ha ha), after all if there can be any improvement at all you're not ready to sell. As long as you tell no fibs and don't aggrandize yourself it's all good, IMO. Many folks who can't afford a handmade guitar and will be thrilled to buy one at discount, even if it is only a humble 7 out of 10.

Brock, I know you're coming at this from a marketing standpoint, but the reality is this...

IF someone is looking for a handmade guitar, then they will look to people making "handmade guitars". That means that every builder out there has the potential of selling to this customer. Therefore, all luthiers building handmade guitars are in competition for that customer's sale.

The only way that you can say that you're not competing is if the customer has no other choices...

So everyone here who builds guitars by hand is in the same market place as everyone else when it comes to selling instruments, provided the customer is willing to buy from a distance, or via a website etc.

Now, you may find a way to market to a more concentrated market regionally for instance, and if you're the only game in town, and the customers in your area don't want to order a guitar from across the country or planet, then you may have the market pretty much to yourself.
Still, the decision making process on the part of the buyer may weigh out buying a handmade guitar for $X vs a factory-made guitar of X$ or $Y.

As far as the market demand always being higher than our ability to produce it, if this were true, then we all would be gainfully employed as full-time luthiers. I'm convinced that there really isn't the huge market that some folks think there is, especially right now with the poor economy. Even the folks with the excess income are holding on to their money with a bit more of a tight grip.

But I do understand where you're coming from...it's just that the theoretical and the realistic markets aren't always one and the same.

Go ahead....let me have it... I'm sure you have an excellent rebuttal!

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."