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I have been wondering about this for a while. I remember reading that longer scale guitars require more string tension to achieve a particular tuning. Slack tuning (open chords) can produce string buzz. Does it stand to reason that longer scale guitars might make better open tuning guitars? Yes, this can lead to extreme finger stretch problems.. but...

Mike

Basically...yes. Dropped tunings are less floppy on longer scale length guitars, all else being equal (string guage, etc.)

Kevin Ryan is one example of someone who makes 25.7" scale guitars, intended for fingerstyle playing, for that very reason, since fingerstyle players often use altered tunings.

The difference in fingering (compared to a standard 25.4" scale) is really pretty minimal. It's only a little more that 1/16" difference in the length of the fretboard over the first 5 frets (where the frets are widely spaced enough that there is ever any challenge to the stretch).

Now, if you're talking about using a radically longer scale length, that's another story.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I do not know about "radically".

There are anatomical restraints that are obvious. How are these particular scale lengths arrived at in the first place?

Mike

Careful study of the pyramids.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Hmmm....and I thought it was beamed down from the Mother Ship....

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The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

Hi:

If you are using tunings like F Wahine (CFCGCE for the non-slack key players) the strings can get pretty loose. It may be easier to try out higher tension strings if you are getting buzzing in the base strings. I have had good luck with high tension Hannabach Goldins.

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GEO
perpetual beginner

The longest scale length on a steel string guitar that I know of (not counting baritone guitars) is the 670 mm (26.38") scale used by Selmer. Many Selmer copies are still made with that scale length. I've never actually played one of those, so I don't know how it feels, and I don't know what types/gauges of strings people tend to use. Maybe someone with experience with those guitars will chime in.

The funny comments from Howard and Erik really mean this: it's arbitrary. But if you stray too far from accepted standards, especially going much longer, it will be hard for many players to adjust to, and you will have to experiment with different types and gauges of strings to find tensions that work (not a bad idea anyway if you're using altered tunings).

Researching baritone guitars may also give you some helpful insight into these questions.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Yes, F Wahine is a tough one. What does it mean for a string to be considered "high tension"? Thicker? (heavier gauge)?

Mike

Todd,

A perenial question asked by new Slack Key players is, "what is the best guitar for Slack key?"

It's a good question, one that rarely recieves a good answer. I was reading sometime back here that longer scale guitars require more string tension to achieve any particular tuning. That seems to me to be an answer to the question above.

The limiting factor would be, of course, fingering. But an interesting thing about open chord music is that fingering complexity is (can be) typically reduced. So, I am wondering about the longest scale lengths used.

As side note, how did the current accepted scale lengths come into existance?

Mike

Hi Mike:

Have you posted your question on TaroPatch.net? I am guessing you will find that most slack key players who respond there will be using guitars with the usual scale lengths. I seldom post there but do read the forum on a regular basis and it seems when questions of guitars for slack key music the discussions are all about factory made guitars meaning mostly regular scale lengths. Actually there has been some interest recently in smaller bodied guitars with shorter scale lengths like 630mm. You might try emailing Grimes Guitars as he builds both steel and nylon string guitars for slack key players who can afford them. Keola Beamer seems to have several of them. Steve Sano uses a Grimes guitar too.

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GEO
perpetual beginner

Am I out to lunch to want to build a short scale guitar (24.9) for slack key (DGDGBD)?

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

No - the sounclip I posted recenly was on my cedar/cuban mahogany 24.8" scale length guitar in DGDGBD tuning.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Rich:

No, not all. I have built a Panormo replica with a 630mm scale (nylon strings) and played several slack key tunings on it. Mark Nelson has a CD out last year with a number of songs played on a small bodied, short scale guitar. He wanted the "old time" sound.

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GEO
perpetual beginner

Sorry, my question was a theoretical question. By the way, I am a member at taro patch, wanna guess my username?

I realize that fingerstyle and shorter scale lengths go together. But some of the lower tunings (F-Wahine) can be problematic. Lemme get this straight.... did I read somewhere (here) that longer scale lengths require more tension to achieve a particular tuning than shorter scale lengths? This is my real question.

Mike

yup.

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GEO
perpetual beginner

Brother.

Ok, is it true? If it is, it would appear that higher string tensions for lower tunings would be an advantage. Taro Patch tuning would hardly qualify with its slightly slacked strings.

Larger fret spacing would be not as big a problem as one might think since open tuings (many songs) do not require elaborate stretches.

Mike

To understand the relationship between scale length, tension, and pitch, think of it like this: If you took a guitar tuned in standard tuning and put a capo on the first fret, what would you have to do to get the pitches back to EADGBE? Slacken the strings. You've thereby created a short scale guitar. Likewise, if you could somehow add one more lower fret to a guitar tuned in standard (analogous to making a longer-scale guitar), and the string tensions were left as they were, the notes would now be EbAbDbGbBbEb - all flatted by one half-step. To get the pitches back up to EADGBE, you'd have to tune them up to a higher tension. That's a long scale guitar. (In reality, of course, there is much less difference in scale length between typical long and short scale guitars than in my illustration here.) So, if the string gauges are the same, a short scale guitar will have lower tension than a long scale guitar to achieve the same pitches.

You can also change the string gauges to alter the tensions for a given tuning (or to alter the tuning for a given tension, for that matter). So, you could use a shorter scale guitar for your slack tunings, and use higher gauge strings to achieve higher tensions if you wanted that. You could make an extremely short scale guitar and put extremely heavy strings on it and have tensions similar to a very long scale guitar with very light strings. The sound, of course, would be different.

Some players might like slacker feeling strings and like the sound they get that way. Others might like tighter feeling strings and like the sound they get that way. As you can see, the possibilities are endless.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

One more thing, just to make it a little more complicated. String gauge, in and of itself, is not the only thing that can be changed to alter the tension of a string at a given length and pitch. With wound strings, for example, there's a lot manufacturers can do with different core materials and core thicknesses. So, when I was talking about string gauges, that was actually a simplification of the possible variables involved (but the basic principle I was trying to explain is the essence of the matter). As I said, the possibilities are endless.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/