Official Luthiers Forum!

Importing gets taxed, always has, it shouldn't be a surprise if you've ever crossed the border. The NAFTA thing is pretty great, though, in that at least there are no duties or unexpected fees of any kind on goods manufactured here.

I think the universal healthcare thing works pretty well. A few years back I went from just-diagnosed lump in neck to starting chemotherapy with one of the top specialists in the world in about twenty days. The only costs incurred over seven months of chemotherapy were a couple hundred bucks for anti-nauseants and lost work for my family who chose to take care of me.

For the literature:
Among a group of educated and financially successful Americans (58% with a masters degree or higher, 51% with a household income over 100K, 98% with insurance) living in Canada, they only preferred the American system 9 to 8 over the Canadian system...and this is people with money and health insurance! Do the test with people of average income and income potential and see how it skews...
(Open Medicine, Vol 1, No 2 (2007) What prosperous, highly educated Americans living in Canada think of the Canadian and US health care systems)

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

It ain't so, but you need to get your paperwork in line. If you could just mail whatever you wanted over the border nobody would ever pay tax on anything...

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

If the paperwork is done correctly, we should be able to send warranty work back and forth across the border without being taxed, BUT, sometimes they miss it or mis-read it(the brokers), and we have to pay the ransom, and then claim it back at next year's tax filing. Big hassle, and you're out of your money for up to a year. And for sure, they'll open the package and inspect...

the system in place should work, but of course, there are so many people trying to take advantage of loopholes, like warranty or gift shipping, that ALL is suspect. Another case of the bad apples spoiling the whole....

As friendly as Canada and the US are, it's easy to forget that the border between us is indeed an international border, and to one another, we are foreigners...

No, Mario...

According to our terminology, you are aliens...

A fact which alternately cracks up or pisses off my Australian girlfriend depending on her coffee intake or something like that...maybe it's the time of the month...

BTW, I really liked Canada those 40 plus years ago when I toured extensively, playing every hockey rink between Moncton and Vancouver...

Ok, so there's paper work involved...

Where can I get all the information about that? ("Service Canada"?)

Thanks!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Yes, its all a hassle. Yes, it can get expensive. What I have found in my dealings with customs, carriers, and taxation is that some of it is understood and expected by vendors and clients.

Where it pisses people off is when unexpected fees add up. I have found UPS to be the worst for this.

Recently, my wife ordered two foam cylinders as replacement pads for a home gym. Ordered them from the US. About $12 a piece. Yes, more than a foam roll should be, but its original replacement part, so she goes go ahead and places and order. The thing is, they ONLY ship via UPS, not USPS option. so far, $25 for the parts, then another $25 for shipping. Then, when it arrives at the door, ANOTHER $25 fee for brokerage and taxes. I doubt that the taxes were based upon the original product price. $75 for two foam rolls. We sent them back and lost the shipping cost. It was outrageous.

The point is, if we had been provided options and clear information about the cost, we would not have been standing at the doorstep picking our jaws up from the ground.

I have also found out that the UPS brokerage service has split fees for commercial clients and for consumer clients. The price differential is quite substantial.

It has also been my experience that the customs people are really quite friendly and helpful when you make your inquiries.

It pays big dividends to be informed, and to provide clear information to clients.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Actually, that's not true. I bought a boat new in 2000 and have moved to 4 different states so far. You pay a state sales tax one time when you buy the boat, then as move from from state to state, you just need to register the boat for the waters you will be using it in. Normally the state registration runs between $25-$40 per year. Do Californians somehow avoid state sales tax all together if they moor the boat in Canada? When I bought my boat I had to pay the state sales tax for the state I was going to use the boat in, not where I bought it (Alabama vs. Florida).

Yes Bob, but your figures are skewed because you are only looking at financially successful Americans. For example, if any of those people had a family member that needed to see a specialist for say breast cancer, or a hip replacement, I bet almost all (especially earning $100k +) would have coverage through their U.S. company and would likely return to the U.S. for treatment vs. waiting 6 months+ to see a specialist. Now for your everyday cold and flu, sure there's probably not much difference and that's what your numbers show.

John- You know a lot more about this than I do. (and, this is getting way off topic- sorry!) You are correct.
I know that if you buy a boat in a state with no sales tax and move the boat to WA for more than a few months, you have to pay WA sales tax. If you've paid the sales tax in another state, you have to pay the difference between that tax and the WA tax, in 'Use fees' in WA. There are also property taxes to be paid on the boat.
This is particularly galling to folks who build their own boats, and then have to pay tax based on the 'market value'.
The 'authorities' cruise the docks looking for out-of-state stickers on boats.
This sort of discussion comes up fairly often when people are talking about larger boats, which may be kept in salt water while the owner lives far inland.

Cheers
John

Hip replacement (non-life threatening) might have a shorter wait, but the cancer thing might be a different story. As I said, I was in treatment within one month after diagnosis, and I actually started seeing the specialist ten days after my biopsy which took place in a different province, no less! No six months there. The mortality rate of patients in Canada is actually slightly lower than in the US (ie: less people per capita die waiting/waiting to pay for life-saving procedures here).

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I don't know how to take others post and put it in a new reply to someone. Not a computer guy. I meant what said about "free" health care in a less than postive light. The idea there is such a thing as "free" anything, much less health care is nonsense. It is paid by the high taxes. I don't know as never had the health care, but if anything like the VA, Indian clinic's etc ran and funded by the goverment, not real good return for amount paid. I get good care from VA, but have to wait at times months to get a test or treatment for things can do in a few days in private care system.
This is my very first post of this type and the last (try to obey the rules), but the the taxes paid to get the so called "free" healthcare isn't what I hope ever happens here. It effects trades like the Colonel's (John's) noted in original post, across common border business etc. I know taxes are needed, but when it is 40 to 60 Cents out of a dollar, it gets rediculous. Just think paying 25-40% in payroll deduction taxes, property taxes, car taxes and then from what I understand in Canada a 18% sales tax on all goods bought. I can pay for health insurance for less than that.
I know lot of folks need help and it should be there for those cases. But, so many can work and just choose not to. What is the incentive, get free (or very, very low) rent (gov. paid), free food (not always food), free utilities, free health care etc. Paying for those who can, but won't just gets me worked up. I had 1/3 partnership in a good business. I along with others paid ourselves salary about 50K a yearand good salaries for 18-25 employee's. Guess what, because the way taxes are here, I was considered one of the rich that needed to be taxed more, because of having a solid good business, and paying others, the company income was noted as part of my income so got to pay even more taxes. I worked 60-80 hours plus a week at that business, but considered as a person who got lucky in lifes lottery. I finally got tired of it and sold my portion, but can I enjoy it, nope, I had to put it in things just not to get hit with higher taxes again on what I had already paid taxes on. My family when I die, will get to pay those same taxes again for a 3d time probably.
"Free" healthcare of the highest quality like I and others pay or paid for, ran by goverment on taxes. No such thing as a free anything, except if you one of those who choose (I mean choose, not because can't) so goverment and those who do, pay it for you.
I hope everyone here who goes into this business are successful, but as you are, just look at the taxes and cost it takes. May make a bunch in the gross, but the net can go down fast. Now I am off my soapbox and await the pm's on how much a grinch I am. Again won't make anymore of these type post, but one of those things that set me off. Sorry and don't mean offense to those who think different, well maybe I do.

True what Bob says. My son had a liver transplant 10 days after he entered Hospital with his third bout of severe dehydration from throwing up at 16 months old. It may have helped that he brought his replacement liver with him (me) but still when the job needs to be done it gets done. But, his surgery bumped a kidney transplant patient who had been waiting for about a year (I don't think his was life threatening otherwise I am sure they would have done him!...). But for Leith (my son) they needed two operating rooms simaltaneously, starting with me to make sure that they could get a piece they needed before they opened him up. I can't even image what the cost of that process would have been.......his drugs are about $2000 per month now (and he is on about 10% of what he was on) and that is even covered by health care, we don't directly pay it (but we do pay higher taxes!). Works for me at the end of the day! I am glad that my tax base always works to keep kids like Bob Garrish with us as well.....Otherwise he and I wouldn't have been able to spend as many hours on the phone to each other as we do !

NOW we are WAY off topic!

Shane

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Canada

Im really sorry to hear about your dilemna... its entirely unreasonable for certain;

The lesson here is NOT to go with a overnight type carrier at all... IMO
Ive heard nothing but nightmares from people using UPS and FedEx...
(which are supposed to be a secure way to ship >> but I hear about more damaged parcels through them than regular mail!!! for crying out loud!)

However - Ive always used CanadaPost (Xpresspost) sending to the USA,
and had parcels delivered with USPS Global Priority mail sevices to Canada respectively...
and have never had a single problem or heard of anyone having a major problem in over 10 years of cross border trading and shopping/shipping!
The carriers like UPS and FedEx automatically assign brokers to each parcel (from what Ive heard and understand)
These guys are out to assess you as many fees as possible... it seems.
The same parcel will slip through customs either way regular mail, and at most be charged sales tax, or small duty..
Ive found this happens only about 15% (or less) of the time really - IME
It sucks because alot of people hear about these nightmare cross border shipping stories and wont ship to Canada period.... but its a simple matter of using our daily mail... to avoid problems...
Cheers
Charlie

The off-base shipping perception works the other way, too. I have a lot of customers who were initially afraid of doing business with a Canadian company because of 'insane shipping costs'. An actual shipping quote and (perhaps?) work quality changed their minds.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Not to poke another stick in the mud, but has anybody ever tested the dimensional weight limit the USPS enforces? According to the USPS, the max size package they will deliver to Canada is 108" when you take the length + girth (circumference). The guitarbox I used for the archtop was 50"x10"x22". According to the website, they won't ship a package this big. Is that true? I didn't try the USPS but now I'm wondering if they would have even accepted my box.

Hey Stan--sorry to hear about your insurance BS--I hope I didn't poke a stick in an old wound! That really sucks. You know the system is broke when people are better off closing their doors than staying in business trying to pay the outrageous insurance costs.

John

Hey, that was me. I don't know why it says I'm a guest. Weird...

I may be wrong, but they used to have an oversize charge. I used to ship 4x12 cabs that my son traded/sold some years ago. He's probably owned about 50 boutique amps and cabs at various times. All his money, thank goodness.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Until I went onto a very bare bones health plan, I was paying over $900.00 a month for what Canadians pay for out of taxes. That was net...so it was well over 30% of my net pay...Then you add in state and federal SSI and income tax out of my gross, and I know I was paying more than if I lived in Canada... I'm also quite aware of what Australians pay out as I spend time down there. Anyone who thinks we in the US are getting a good deal is very out of touch...

Rick T.

I don't know a whole lot about USPS, but I recall that one time a US seller had to go home and cut down a guitar box a few inches to get it into the USPS system and on its way to me. This size constraint is one 'excuse'/reason that folks give for turning to UPS/FedEx and their gouging price structure. Probably if you could get the parcel past the 'gatekeeper' at your local post office, you would be OK.
Also, the max size rules at USPS are different for shipping to different countries- for Canada the size limit is higher than for Europe, as I recall.

CanadaPost won't accept packages above their size limit. With CanadaPost, parcels are all measured because they use volume as well as weight to determine pricing. This can drive you crazy when your parcel isn't big enough to pass the minimum size: "Go home and put it in a bigger box" - it happens when shipping small components sometimes, if I forget to check the specs with Canada Post . (I learned quickly and check before I pack, now.)

Cheers
John

Man, I thought my entire ordeal with exchanging a guitar to Canada was over. Well, it's not. I just received a bill in the mail today for US customs duties for another $245!!!! Man, I thought there was free trade between the US and Canada (isn't that what NAFTA is for?). Now that it's all said and done, the total cost between the other guy and myself to just trade guitars is an astounding $1,190 .

How can anybody afford to do business internationally? Between customs, border charges, duties, UPS charges, gas surcharge, etc., it just doesn't seem worth it.

John

NAFTA made things duty free. If Customs charged you duties, contact them. On the other hand, if the bill is for taxes collected, contact the tax man.

Free trade works, and works well. If you do the documentation correctly.....

NAFTA means that if it's made in North America, then there are no duties except sales tax. If the guitar wasn't made in North America, then duties still apply. And, if it's taxes...then it's taxes and you legally have to pay them every time goods change hands, even if you get around it sometimes.

My customers never pay duties on anything I send them, because all my stuff is made in Canada. They probably have to pay taxes, though, unless the postman is nice enough to let them off

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Hmm, the bill I received specifically said "customs duty charge" for the amount. The guitar is a Sadowsky archtop that was made in the USA. The bill was actually sent from 'UPS Shipping Solutions' which I assume is their subsidiary that handles international shipping. So you guys are saying if I contact them I shouldn't have to pay the customs duty?

John

Oops, disregard my previous post, I forgot Sadowsky archtops are actually made in Japan and then sent to the shop in NYC for fretwork and final setup. All the parts with the exception of the pickup, pots, and frets are from Japan so I guess NAFTA doesn't apply. So, I guess the customs folks knew what they were doing.

John

Stop guessing and arguing with us here, and contact the folks who sent you the bills. If they made a mistake, they will owe up to it and make it good, and if it wasn't a mistake, they will explain it to you so that you understand it completely. That goes for both you, and the other fella. There's a phone number on the bill somewhere, for you to call when there's a mistake or disagreement and you wish to contest the charges.

Sorry this all happened to you guys, but stop blaming the system; the system works, when the system is understood.