Official Luthiers Forum!

I was wondering, all the luthiers doing it for a living are they naturally gifted in website and promotion as well? As you can see from my website it's far from professional but I'm hopeless when it comes to making a professional looking website. Where can I get help for this kind of stuff?

my website is taiwanluthiers.wordpress.com by the way.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Tai Fu - contact me via my business email pburner@slidearts.com - www.slidearts.com

Responsive WordPress website design.

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

+1 on the One Page thing. Also think about ways to enhance the web experience for your visitors. Quality video is the way to go, IMO.

Tai Fu, I did my website using yahoo web site builder. Check it out below, although not as good as a professional, it seems adequate. And wasn't very difficult even for me without any prior web site building experience (not at all gifted with computers). I can also change it at will without having to contact someone.

Chuck

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IMO Fillipo hit the nail on the head. I do this stuff for a living and I can tell you that brevity is key. You can have pages of content if you want for the rare person that wants to actually read it but up front you should keep it simple and brief and get yourself some professional quality pictures, they will go a real long way. You also need to make sure that your site works on mobile devices. Keep it simple with high quality images and brief descriptions.

A web site is something designed to show case but more importantly to sell. Keep in mind that everything on your site is designed to sell your products and services. The simpler that is for a user on your site the more stuff you sell.

So as for doing luthiery for a living, are fame really that important? What I mean is will people not come to you just because you are not Somiygi or his apprentices? What do people look for when deciding to buy a handmade guitar?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

In some ways you can generalise but it's pretty dangerous to do so. Different people look for different things but virtually 100% of them want quality, even if it's just the perception of quality. The guy paying for a Guitar with a long wait list and freeing him of $15,000 + doesn't really want to be told that he could get pretty much the same thing for a quarter of that price. That also holds true for the guy paying $2,000. Never underestimate the power of marketing. We all like to think that we will be judged on our work and on our work alone but that isn't always true. The fact is that there are too many makers for a relatively small number of clients and the overall standard of build has risen appreciably over the last 30 or 40 years.
You have to get your work seen. Not much point hiding in the corner of a darkened room. A website is just one tool in a number of approaches. Don't expect them to come flooding in just because you've put a few fancy pictures up on a website, although that can work extremely well too.

So what's the point of skills then? Seems all you need to get ahead in life is good marketing skill.

How do I get my work seen? The market in my area seems to be limited to name brand stuff even though there are very few builders in Taiwan...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I didn't state that skills are not important. It's a combination of a lot of things, Guitarmaking and marketing skills obviously being very important. Look at it another way. Let's say that you make 'the best' (whatever that is) Guitar in the world. Unless you market it right the chances are you aren't going to sell many or it might be 15 or 20 years before the world starts to realise how wonderful they are.
I don't know how you get your work seen. I don't know the market of Taiwan. The normal pattern (if there is such a thing) is to gain a reputation in your own area/state/country. It then spreads, the rest of the world or your continent follows. You have to do the foot work. You've got to get your product to the best or the better players, even if it's for a quick 10 minute trial.

It's hard to get past the name brand stuff because young people grow up watching their favorite artist playing a Fender or a Martin or a Taylor or what ever name brand guitar and they want to get the same sound and assume that getting such and such guitar will get them there. It's called advertising and it works. I've sold guitars to two kinds of people, those who are really good musicians looking for a good responsive guitar and those who are not so great perhaps as musicians but want a fine work of art because they appreciate it. Most of my customers are buy local types and go to the local farmers market not Walmart (I realize this may be an Americanism and you won't understand but basically people who are willing to pay more even in some cases for just as good quality) You will probably never sell a guitar to some one who thinks that Taylor and Martins are the best guitars ever made because Dave Mathews uses one, or something like that.

I am satisfied with the guitars I build because the really good musicians who have bought them tell me so and I think they sound good myself. But musicians don't have a lot of money, doctors do, and they may tend to appreciate the craft more. The fact of the matter is a really good musician can make an over built Crafter guitar sound good.

It's a tough market... It's why I have a day job

I don't know the area I am in too well, truth is I grew up in Texas and I would have done fairly well in Texas, at least working for a luthier rather than trying to do it on my own. Taiwan is a whole different bag of trick to me and I can't really get into the rich men circle in Taiwan.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I tried building network, going to various music stores telling them that I can build guitars and stuff and all I've managed to do is hit a brick wall. I do not really know what else I can do. All music stores are interested in are cheap guitars and nobody is going "ooh there's a guitar builder in Taiwan".

I've also told nearly everyone within my circle that I build guitars but so far they still prefer a Takamine...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Firstly you need a fine example of your work. Make sure it looks, plays and sounds the best that you can muster. Then find out who are the very best Players that live local. Go knock on doors armed with a Guitar. After that you might have to venture further afield and that's when it starts costing. I don't know of any other way to do it apart from trying to get them on the walls of decent music shops. That has both advantages and disadvantages. Potentially more people get to see and play your instrument but in doing so they can get a little abused. You also take a risk with the insurance (or lack of) and if the outlet goes bust you will probably never see your Guitar again - it happens and has happened recently but thankfully not to me. It was a dang close thing though! Not many of these places have decent Humidity control. Sounds like hell, sometimes it is.
Then there is the website and things like Youtube. If you can get a player to do a high quality recording, get it done. Better still get 2, 3 or more to do them. Very difficult to do any of this stuff without money. At the end of the day you have to sink money into it. Eventually it might all pay off but there certainly aren't any guarantees. I use a slightly different approach but it basically amounts to the same thing.

I do repairs and other services, however even that is difficult to sell... thing is people who plays guitars that are worth more than 200 dollars are so limited in number... and most of them are brand spanking new that nobody is going to think of a neck reset for a long time...

I get some work from one or two clients but that's every now and then. Money do seem to come in when I need them the most...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

with the help of my previous pastor I sent #2 to California where a music store agreed to display it... it's not the best example of my work (because I built it without a full shop) but it's pretty good according to the pastor and the musicians that played it. I don't know where it gets me but I really need every help I can get.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Filippo is giving good advice in this thread. It may not be as "concrete" as you are looking for, go back and re-read his posts and digest the concepts he is offering. You need to apply his advise witht he same creativity you put into guitar making. There is not a plan for marketing like a drawing for a vintage Martin OM. You often seem to answer advice with things like that doesn't work here because X. Instead say, this hasn't worked yet, how can I alter my approach to match my situation. When you were restoring those guitars you posted, you certainly had to find unique ways to accomplish each task; you did it there, do the same thing outside your shop.

When you interact with people during your networking stay positive and confident, don't come off as defeatist.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

About the worship band thing, it hasn't worked yet because nobody in the worship band has broken a guitar, and even if they did all they played was Epipiphones and no name cheap guitar that retails for about 100 dollars new, and a repair job costs more than that (in most cases) so it's a hard sale. I know them pretty well, or at least I think I do. What else can I do? When I did get a customer I tried my best with them but they never come back with a friend or otherwise, and I keep wondering if there's anything I did wrong or something and I have basically trashed my reputation.

I apologize for the defeatist attitude and the "this won't work". I find it hard to know when to talk or what to say in order to be sensitive. I'm good at finding out how to restore a vintage Martin but when it comes to people, I panic and I have absolutely no idea what to do.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I understand that dealing with people can be more difficult for some than others. Above all, don't panic. When you start getting anxious, slow down, breathe, relax. Remember, most interactions with people don't really have dire consequences anyway. Try to be as relaxed as possible, if you are anything like me, when you are nervous the things that come out of your mouth are not nearly as eloquent as when you are clam. In the business world that often is more off-putting that saying less or taking longer to make your point. You won't sound confident if you are panicking.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

IT can be very discouraging trying to make a living doing this. The only way I was able to eat and pay the bills was through repairs and some of those repairs turned into commissions down the road. I always have two or three guitars in my shop so that when people come by they can see and play them. After a year or so I sell them discounted and have a couple replacements. IT really helps to have examples of work that people can play. Also the music teacher thing was a good idea. I sold a guitar to a music teacher, and friend of mine, at a reasonable discount and have since gotten 3 builds out of that deal. If you have a local web community that can be a great place to start too. For example we have a local down town merchants organization and several local twitter and Facebook groups that get a lot of traffic. Also I can advertise my work on the local Craigs list. IF you are part of any other online communities, like for example I ride and race bicycles and am a member of several forums, these forums often have off topic sub forums and you can post something about your work. I sold two guitars that way.

You may want to check local schools too. I got a job once at a local school that wanted to bring back a guitar lesson class that they used to do. I got a contract to repair a room full of guitars. Probably 100 guitars that needed to be set up. And of course try to get in as the repair man for any local shops. I know that's a tough market to brake into. Typically they will take 20% of your work but if you get into a good shop or two it will really help you pay the bills.

+1 to what Bryan said. You really need to know your stuff, and have the answers before a client asks the questions. When you are asked a question, take a moment to form your answer in your mind, and give a clear and concise reply. If the client needs more info or they don't quite grasp what you are telling them, take your time and explain and maybe draw a picture or show them on a guitar.
If you can build a guitar to show, make sure it is as flawless as possible, and explain why your work has value over cheap, mass produced guitars. Work on your presentation, Tai, because you are selling yourself first, and guitars or services second.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

lots of gud ideas here

How does someone with Asperger's sell himself? I think my problem is I always try to sell the product or service but are hopeless when it comes to selling myself. In my experience I always manage to leave bad impression no matter what... this people thing is not only mysterious, it's scary.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Hi, Tai.

I have given this a lot of thought over the last couple of days, and I have some thoughts I'd like to share with you. First, some snippets from my own story, which will hopefully put my other thoughts into perspective. They are in no particular order of importance or chronology.

1. I played guitar for years before I started building them. People knew me as a guitar player and teacher. A musician friend of mine heard I was going to start building instruments, and ordered a mandolin. I have since completed and delivered that instrument, even though it ended up taking several years (I built a prototype in the meantime to make sure that I could build what he wanted. He requested some tweaks which I incorporated into the final product.) Several other people with whom I've played music and know well have requested or inquired about instruments since then.

My point is that relationships are more important than products. One has to see value in people for who they are, and not what they can spend on a guitar, or how they can contribute to a company's bottom line. Do you have a circle of friends that you regularly hang out with? They don't have to be musicians, and even if they were, they wouldn't be able to keep you in business, unless they are extremely large in number.

This will give you practice in developing relationships in a low-pressure context. It will also help your network, because Person 1 may know a guitar player or teacher that you may not know. That player/teacher may not need a guitar at the moment, but he might need some setups done that he doesn't have to the time or expertise to accomplish.

You might consider learning to play an instrument, especially the guitar, fairly proficiently. This will take many hours, most of them lonely ones spent with just your guitar, or your guitar and a book, or your guitar and a CD/DVD. This will not only help with making friends, it will help with your own instrument making, as it will help you identify with customers who are looking for "that sound" or "that feel", and it will help you demonstrate your guitars as well.


2. I have built a few commissions, and it has been enough to know that I do not want the pressure of doing lutherie for a job. It seems like a perfect way to ruin a wonderful hobby. Many people have asked if I would like to make a living at it, and I always tell them that I would rather keep it as a hobby. I do not have a website at all, any business cards, nor an official-looking email address.

My point is, have you considered doing something else to pay the bills, or to save up until you can do lutherie full-time, maybe in a different location? I figured the pressure of full-time lutherie was not for me. You have to make that decision for yourself. If your bills are looked after by your day job, the feeling of panic might be easier to disperse when it comes to selling a guitar or gaining a commission.


3. Some years ago it was time for me to change jobs, and I really wanted to become an electrician. I inquired at most of the local companies, but no one was hiring at that time, especially when I didn't have any experience. The next occupation on my list of interests was glazing (glass-work, not donuts), so I started applying at the local glass shops. The first one was only looking for someone to clean vehicles in the autoglass department, and I had my sights higher than that, so I moved on, and got a job at the next shop. I stayed there for two years, until I figured that I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life, and that I should get out while I could still afford to. I moved to a different city and started a new job, working there until it became clear that I was not able to make that a lifetime career choice, either. Through some contacts in my hometown, I was able to land a job as an electrician. I am enjoying my work, and even though it is not music-related, it pays the bills and supports my family, in addition to offering some career advances. It's been over ten years since I first wanted to get into electrical, but I've learned some valuable things in the meantime.

My point is, sometimes you just have to wait. I'm in a position now where I am supporting a family of five on a starting wage, and there isn't much left over at the end of the month, but we do what we can and learn to enjoy the little things in life. I'm waiting to be able to go to school, waiting for a wage increase, waiting to move out of the barely adequate mobile home we're living in, and waiting for the day when I have guitar-building facilities again. Don't feel sorry for me, I say this to prove that I'm practicing what I'm preaching.

Many people will not have the patience to read what I just wrote, so here is the digest version:

1. Learn to connect with people separate from guitar-building. Some years ago, I read, "You start by building for friends, then friends of friends..." This has been true in my case. No pun intended.

2. Keep your horizons wide, and your options open. Maybe night school would prepare you for a position that you would do well in, and enjoy, while you do lutherie part-time.

3. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. If that something isn't working, try something else. Life's too short to beat your head against a wall.


Tai, after re-reading this, my words seem cold and distant. I wish we could be in the same room so that you could see my eyes and my smile. I feel for you because my brother has Asperger's, and he has had many challenges that I have not had to face. I'm not going to lie, it takes courage.

When you left Texas, did you leave a foot in the door to get back into North America? Would you even want to?

Best regards,
Lincoln

I don't know what else I'd do in Taiwan. The only thing that I could realistically do (given my background) is work minimum wage jobs (which can't support even a spartan lifestyle in Taiwan, it's very low) and work so much hours that all you want to do is sleep afterward, no time for building social networks. It's either that or I can go teach English, which is not something I want to do (because of Asperger's) and it comes with a bit of racial discrimination, in that they strongly favor those with white skins, blond hair, and blue eyes. I started doing luthiery as a job because my pastor encouraged me to do it. He said he saw my gift and believed that it's what God wanted me to do, and in all of honesty it's not something I thought of doing (but wanted to) because I felt there was no market for the stuff in Taiwan. Everything else that paid real wages requires exams in Chinese, and I cannot write in Chinese at all. The exams are hard too because it's meant for chinese speakers, and I don't get any leeway simply because I was educated in Texas. I took one (to get government jobs) and got a 2 out of 100 in the chinese test...

I get more free time doing luthiery and get paid real wages... most jobs in Taiwan pays 3 dollars an hour IF the boss is in a good mood (if he's not, you get nothing for all the overtime you have to put in) but cost of living isn't really that much lower than the US. The government doesn't really care because he might get a fine of 300 dollars for stealing 1000 dollars worth of work from you.

Unfortunately there's no possible way I know of to go back to Texas but I have been wanting to for so long.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com