Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey Ok Im a general newbie in the luthierie world - but If I understand your concern ToddStock, then perhaps its more of a situation where there is a place for the "grownups" to talk... a section thats reserved for experienced builders to converse -
this way you could have the option to help out a dumbarse like me or just converse with your fellow luthiers of high esteem?
Im thankful to people here who have taken the time to help me out... Your one of them Todd!
Cheers
Charlie
PS what MLP said in his initial thread is pure poetry!

We all find a way to do things that works for us.
We even get in a rut by not changing that way because of fear of failure.
This forum lets all of us share how,why & what we're doing to make guitars as best we can .

New makers & experienced makers all learn here.


Mike

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Mike Collins

(not to hijack the thread so I'll be brief...) I sure am glad the experienced ones come on here to share with us neophytes. You deserve a big

The two pros that left are still easily accessible on other forums. For a pittance you can access Sylvan's ever increasing collection of lutherie "stuff that works". We still have highly experienced builders and repair persons that post here. We have a bunch of folks with 30-50 under their belt that can give good basic advice to beginners. Life is good eh?
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Look at the list of people that are still here, Howard Klepper, on any measure one of the finest half dozen or so guitar makers on the planet, and Kevin Gallagher, probably made more guitars than 90% of the forum added together for instance. Both of these gentlemen (and I use the word purposely) patiently answer the questions of the rest of us. Yes I do miss Mario, not to have his no nonsense, but still polite, posts is a great loss to the forum. There are some I don't miss, those whose enormous building skills were not matched by there social skills, who seemed to be rude and obnoxious for the sake of it. No good riddance to them I say.

And then of course there is me, what a boon to the forum I am! I may not be the best luthier in the world, but I'm certainly in the top one!
(Appologies to Brian Clough, the Brits will understand)

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

What Todd Rose said.

I too take what I can an am truly grateful to those who share at every level. I too feel compelled to give what little I can in effort to pay my way. However the bottom line is that I have never met a member who joined this or any other guitar orientated forum to be belittled, abused or used as the pump arm to inflate some ones ego. As a matter of course, in the first instance respect must be afforded to all, quite simply nothing else should be acceptable. However respect can only be maintained with respectfulness applied in return, should you fail in this, you are likely to get what you deserve no matter how many guitars you have built, and no matter how important you may think you have become and that is exactly the way it should be.

I do not mind a short and 'to the point' answer, for this Mario remains king and is sadly missed from the OLF. I do not mind a detailed and complete answer, for this Allen Carruth is king and I am very glad he remains with us. But I cannot stand to see folks belittled for simply having tried to help another with advice which did not happen to align with the opinions of one who considers himself a 'pro'. Sure Mario could be abrasive, but he would never belittle an enquiring mind or helpful spirit, he would simply make a solid correction where necessary with the facts and I never once saw him try to pump his own ego at the expense of another. As Colin has mentioned, Allen Carruth is an outright gent and I cannot imagine him ever upsetting anyone intentionally, but like Colin, I also feel that it is good to see the back end of others who IMHO had only managed to chase away more than they ever bought to this forum.

Cheers

Kim

In my experience the person who is the most open to learning, is a person who is the most willing to teach. It is a quality that is innate, and they can't help themselves!

So true.

I may be new to guitar building but I design and build stuff for a living so I think I understand where most of you are coming from. I am pretty opinionated about what I know works for me so I can produce an above average product.

It really helps to have a thick skin.

There is more than one way to do most jobs. If it works for you, rock on. If your final product is really good then I, for one, will pay close attention to what you have to say. That doesn't mean I will necessarily do it that way.

I really appreciate you guys.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I looked at it this way. The higher the tide gets the more we can all swim together. In other words, the more information and participation out there, we all stand to benefit.
Seeing something done once is the same as hearing/reading about it 100 times.
Doing it once is the same as seeing it done 100 times.
All the information available here allows one to go and do and this brings a lot of joy and satisfaction (and sometimes frustration) to a lot of people no matter what level you are at.
Happy Building everyone!

I can only surmise that experienced builders who share information and answers here do so because they are, at heart, generous people who get a lot of satisfaction from helping others. I've been amazed (and very grateful) for the help I've received from some top professional builders. I just assume they wouldn't be taking the time to help all of us if it didn't make them feel good.

With regard to debate, misunderstandings, perceived rudeness or perceived arrogance, I've seen very little argumentation here that wasn't respectful. What I HAVE observed on occasion is a misunderstanding. (In fact, I probably caused one of them some time back.) We're all wired up a little differently, and that sometimes shows in the way we read posts or the way we write questions or answers. And...let's face it...some people are excellent communicators and others aren't.

I would also hazard a guess that many of the best, most experienced builders also have very open minds. They will post a thoughtful answer because they are generous and want to help. They will be opinionated because their experience has led them to a certain opinion. They will sometimes stand their ground if they feel it's necessary. But I expect most of them are very happy when they come across a helpful insight or a well-reasoned response posted by someone else.

I think this forum is generally excellent, and I enjoy the exchange between all levels of builders. In contrast, I once lurked and occasionally posted in a woodwind forum that will remain unnamed. Now...I'll tell you for sure...there were some opinionated, rude people there. Some of the supposed experts were pretty misinformed, too. OUR forum is so much better, so much more respectful, and full of so much more useful information. I am truly grateful for whatever it is that makes our top builders share their time with us.

Well said, Filippo.
Patrick

I always felt that shared info raised all boats and helped give our craft more legitimacy and acceptance. The better we all build, the better for both luthier and customer. Back when I started building in 1970 very few would share knowledge. I decided I would not follow in those footsteps if and when I got to the level of proficiency where someone would actually seek out my advice.
That said, the events of the past year or so have combined to take me farther away from forum participation. And the passing of my good friend and fellow luthier, Lance McCollum, has just about eliminated any time to even read the forum. Today I am just vegging, so I figured I cruise by and see what everyone is talking about. Lo and behold, there are actually some threads I can (somewhat intelligently) contribute to! I hope this was one of them....

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Hank Mauel

I've given a bit more thought to these good questions and I would suggest that an experienced builder shouldn't find that he HAS to defend his methods and ideas. If they're opinions and methods based on experience he can state that. Who could despute that? And if they try to, so what- as long as they're civil. His message will be heard and the ideas and methods will get evaluated by who he is and how they work. It may seem that his ideas are lost in a sea of noise but if they're good, they won't be. I guess I'm trying to say that it's not the luthiers job to make sure that his ideas receive the merit they're do, that's the job of the reader.

If you're presenting something as a fact, no matter who you are, you better be prepared to back it up. If you don't like that then I don't think open forums are for you. You might do better in one of the biased "monitored" forums.

I also did a bit of poking through the old threads to understand more about what this thread was about. Oh my... you folks have been through a lot. There has obviously been some rude behavior, some might want to call it no-nonsense but well, it seems to me that's just a way to excuse bad behavior.

The forum rules seem to say it best:

Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!

Maybe part of the problem for 'inexperienced', myself included, is quite simple. As a player who has owned and played some relatively expensive instruments, what becomes quite clear quite quickly is that with care, attention and patience its possible to build something BETTER than a $5000 Martin on your first attempt! Every Martin I have owned, has the plastic bindings unlevel with the sides or end graft - something that 10 mins with a sharp scraper willl resolve - the construction relative to what patience can deliver even on the first home build is poor. Ok they nail their sound, but arguably so to do first time builders usually taking far greater care with wood selection, bracing, scolloping or not so that that they produce a 1st instrument usually superior to one they may have owned previously at a high price point. With that in mind, its perhaps easy to see why many inexperienced builders in terms of numbers, may feel they already have a good and sound knowledge of the art. Especially, as I would hazzard a guess that many only come into this as a hobby when a bit older? (I was 39 when I completed my first).

Naturally there is a HUGE amount that can still be learned and that will come as the builds increase, but it may go some way to offering an explanation as to why some inexperienced builders do fell perhaps that they can go toe-to-toe on some issues with pros or experienced luthiers? This should NOT in anyway justify discourtesy or unpleasentness, but maybe can explain why tey are maybe sensitive to what might be considered or come over in the rare occasion as patronising?

Also if someone has been playing for 20-30 years and has a deep knowledge of guitars, their history, construction, woods, bracing etc, but has yet to build one, they would still in my view potentially have something to offer in the build process when it comes to understanding how build = tone? Or am I talking nonsense?

My grandma's been driving 60 years, and she knows what all the parts are called. I wouldn't take advice from her on how to build a car

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I've to to admit that you did an excellent job helping me understand the frustrations of the experienced builders around here. And to all of them I can only say, "You have me deepest sympathy."

Your comment sounds to me a bit like the guy who has a good day at the driving range, tees it up with Tiger Woods and then looks him in the eye and says, "You're butt is mine." There are moments where a bit of humility is in order and talking about your FIRST guitar in a forum like this is one of them.

David, so true, plus group therapy is cheaper than individual psychoanalysis.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Read his statement again - I'll repeat it here: "with care, attention and patience its possible to build something BETTER than a $5000 Martin on your first attempt".

Emphasis on possible. Another emphasis on the ever-subjective "better". This is not an arrogant, elitist statement, it is a fact. Nor does it try and place a newbie builder in the same realm as the veteran luthier. This is actually one of the awesome things about luthierie that hooks you right off the bat and feeds the ongoing addiction - the fact that an inexperienced builder CAN build a very, very good guitar (with care, attention, and patience) than can very likely be better than most any factory guitar at any price point. When that happens, you can't WAIT to get in the shop and build another one!

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

I read it again. It certainly brings a smile to my face.
I'm still feeling good about what I said.



I only see an emphasis on the word BETTER- the one with all capital letters. And I suppost the point of mentioning that this "possible" instrument, can be better than a 5K instrument is NOT to attribute some kind of value to it. The point is?

Honestly, it's really hard for me to imagine how someone could say these lines.







They just seem so far out there and so very far from my experience. I spent 6 years of Saturdays studing with Al Carruth and the only thing that "became quite clear quite quickly" is how hard hard it is to really build a good guitar. And that was the experience of every other one of his students that I studied with.

My advice to you is that if you want the HELP of experienced builders- forget the notion of going toe-to-toe with them.

Now that I can wholeheartedly agree with! A little humility goes a long way.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

No disrespect, but you may have misinterpreted the context of my post. It was trying to offer an explanation - not to justify any arrogance - I think your golf analogy is incorrect, its more like Tiger Woods, the player, deciding to build his own clubs - researching the metals, wood, history and taking a huge amount of care, attention to detail and patience and ADVICE and coming up with something to rival his manufactured ones - sure there will be an element and hit and miss, but overall because of care taken they can do the job very well - so he had a few problems along the way, the shaft is maybe not as even as he would go onto make, but boy it still makes teh ball travel 340 yards.

I would disagree with your statement as well - with care, patience and attention it is more than possible to build a GOOD guitar 1st time around and I would suggest there are plenty out there, Hesh has commented on it - Its what it takes to build a GREAT guitar that comes with experience, not to mention an element of talent and a huge amount of skill and no one is questioning that. The Martin quote I stand by, If a 1st time builder can take 10 minutes to scrape binding level or spend whatever it takes to get the neck angle right, and Martin cant on every guitar the mass produce, is this not 'better'?

This is not arrogance, but I would suggest a common truth for many, and surprizingly so when 1st and early builds are completed - sure consistency takes a while, but as hobbyists you CAN devote the time and effort to getting these small details right as you are not subject to tight production and budget schedules.

You also mention that 'I did and excellent job of gettig you to understand the frustrations of experienced builders around here' - sorry but i dont see how, as I feel you have misinterpreted this post. You have also taken quotes in islolation that naturally can be misread as some sort of arrogance, but that is NOT what is intended.

Going toe-to-toe- what exactly is wrong in debating on an equally and mutually respective level with pros about subjective issues? And in guitar building are there not many issues that are? for which amongst the pros and experienced builders there is no concensus? This is about open and honest discussion quizing and asking questions giving opinion...its how we all learn, its how we all enjoy discovery - as long as its respectful, why should it preclude novices from entering the debate? Its excluding them by presumption of ignorance that appears arrogant to me, and thankfully from what we see on here those that do that are very few and far between. The pros and experienced builders alike on here tend to be decent, honorable folk who love the idea of sharing knowledge and seem to respect those opinions formed on the relative experience - remember also that MOST discussion that causes these rare problems is usually on those issues where there is no concensus amongst the pros!

The anology would be more akin to the feedback that say Micheal Schumacher as a driver gives to the race engineering team - the experience CAN help in the development of the car, small tweaks and improvements. Same as the race team did not invent the combustion engine, but developed and refined it, its also been improved by years of driver input and feedback.

Exactly the point I was trying to make...

So would I, maybe we differ on what we mean by toe-to-toe. Its about being confident enough to ask respectful questions, but also about challenging concepts and solutions. Good and sound ideas will always win out and stand up to scrutiny and question. This scrutiny and questioning is NOT about disagreement, but part of the process of LEARNING - WHY do you do this that way? WHAT makes it better than? ARE there alternatives as X says...? etc - what is wrong with this? If some pros think this is disrespectful, then I am sorry, but it does not seem so to me. Some folk are happy to enter such discussion, others not, and both are equal in my eye. I sure am in awe of some of the supreme skills evident here, in awe of some of the wonderful instruments created, can only wish and dream than one day I might be able to get half way to that standard, but that dont mean what I have built to date cant stand up to a factory instrument and better it, or that I should be in awe of the people who build the masterpieces themselves. Respect yup, should it nmot be both ways?

I think I got that you were trying to offer an explanation and not trying to justify arrogance.



Hey, hey, hey, it's my parable, I get to tell the story; it's an abstraction, it doesn't have to be as literal as you suggest. Here's what I meant by it.

When Tiger Woods steps up to the tee he brings two things with him, incredible skill, and significant accomplishment- forget about his golf clubs- they're not important to my message. When someone finishes their first guitar they step up to the tee with neither incredible skill (you can't get incredible skill from one or a few guitars no matter how good you are because you need the experiences you get with different woods on different guitars worked many different ways to get incredible skill- that's just the way it is) and one or two or three guitars doesn not add up to significant accomplishment (By the standards of these senior luthiers) - even though it can feel that way.

So comparing your first instrument with $5000 guitars. Talk of good and sound knowledge of the art. Talk of first time builders usually taking far greater care with wood selection, bracing, scolloping or not so that that they produce a 1st instrument usually superior to one they may have owned previously at a high price point. - You can see how talk like that might come across to some that the first time builder might be getting a bit large for their britches, even if it's not meant that way. Can't you?

By the way, I've never seen a first or second guitar that is obviously better than really good factoy instruments, let alone comparable to the work of master luthiers. And many of the first and second guitars that I've seen have been voiced and "fixed" by Al Carruth and built by people with all sorts of serious talent. They are nice guitars, I liked the sound of most of them. Direct comparrisons to factory guitars are kind of apple to oranges, but I think that if I gave most players a choice between my Taylor and any of those guitars they would choose the Taylor. And if I didn't know the history of those guitars, so would I. That's the way it usually goes, maybe your guitar really is exceptional but it's not what most people are expecting when they hear a story about early guitars.

Here's the coment that Brock posted earlier


I think he's saying that in additon to being civil on the the basic human level, a certain respect based on impressive skill and significiant accomplilshed should also be honored. This of course gets grey and harder to do at more intermediate levels of the craft but I think, and Brock's comment seems to suggest, it's most galling when a person builds a few guitars and talks like they're Jim Olson.



Maybe this will help, I picked it up with a google search:

toe-to-toe definition

☆ toe·-to-toe (tō′tə tō′)

adverb, adjective

in close and direct confrontation, competition, etc. going toe-to-toe with one's critics, toe-to-toe combat

An example of use of toe-to-to