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sharpened blades dull just as fast in dense wood.

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Coil stock is from Sweden... I posted that earlier. I think I already posted my setup. Not sure if I've seen Todd's, Bob's, or Filippo's. It could very well be a setup (equipment) issue. Please state your equipment. I run my RK with quite a bit of tension. I use the 3/4" and I believe the 1" blades (I need to verify that). I am pretty sure that the smallest RK (3/4") would not work very well on a 14" saw.

Mike

I have a 1" x 1.3 tpi Woodmaster CT that I've been using & a 1" Resaw King that I haven't tried yet.

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but according to my micrometer the RK is only 0.0235" thick while the Woodmaster is 0.035" thick. I suspect this could contribute to the RK being finicky - more tension needed & precisely set guides to help the thin blade stock stay straight.

BTW
Edited

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

Just to clarify, my statement was in jest. I do know that Laguna will send free blades to people who do refer other customers - they offered the deal to me.

Kevin Looker

_________________
I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

It is an alignment problem. Everything must be in perfect alignment. I'm not talking about "setting the drift". The RK blade is not like all kinds of other blades. The extra thin metal reacts differently to alignment of everything. Under tension look at how easily you can twist the blade with your fingers compared to other blades. This flexibility will respond to out of align parts, like guides, wheels, fence and any other part that the blade touches and slight out of align problems when the wood is fed. I'm not trying to imply that anyone does not know how to set up their saw. All I am saying is that the RK blade needs a different alignment protocol than other blades and once the user learns how to align the saw to carry the blade...bingo everything works. And when suddenly everything works and all blades out of the box work correctly I think it is not unreasonable to say the problem was "user error". I was an RK victim of user error for 3 years until I solved the puzzle.



No, not a coincidence at all. There likely could be something wrong with the "blades alignment". One tooth bent a little and the alignment is off. Or a tooth that got chipped? If the blade is not handled with care it could be compromised by bending a tooth while unfolding or installing the blade. It could be damaged in shipment, I would like to see a tooth protector on the blades when they are shipped. However I am convinced when I had problems in the beginning like you have described that within a few inches of cutting a hard species the blade became dull it is because the feed and alignment were off, my error.



No, that is not what I have surmised at all. I'm sure you all know how to setup and operate your equipment. But what I know is that if you are having the RK problem that you describe then you don't know how to operate the RK blade correctly. It is not a matter of not knowing how to operate the saw, it is more about learning how to operate the blade.



Like I said above I also experienced the same problem on my 24" Laguna but not since I learned that alignment issues were the problem and Laguna made the design change to the RK blade last year.

Can the Woodmaster CT cut hundreds of sets of "hard" wood without wear? RK blades do require resharpening.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to use Laguna. I'm just passing on a little knowledge and suggesting that owners of RK blades not assume the blades are bad just because that is what they read on a forum.

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Lance Peck

I'm not in this at all, and don't even have a band saw big enough to handle the blade, but my question would be, "Why on earth would anyone want to buy a blade that difficult to set up, when there are other blades available that will work with less attention to set up, are less expensive, and last longer?" Just wondering?

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Filippo, Just to clarify again, For us the problems you reference are not systemic with the RK blades we receive from Laguna. We just got in 3 new blades to add to our rotation and if any of them fail out of the box as we use them I will post the result here.

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Lance Peck

Once you learn the set up it is not more difficult than any other blade, it is basically a one time set up. The RK blade has an extremely thin kerf and the cut is clean enough that not much thickness is lost to remove saw marks. This results in extra sets of wood from billets and that means less wood waste and perhaps the difference between making money and not. It also means perfect book matched sets.

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Lance Peck

Lance how about a video of you setting the saw up next time you change blades? Maybe we can all learn something.

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The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
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I find it takes the same amount of time to set up a 1 1/4" RK as it takes to set up a 1/4" blade in my HD16. I have had a great 1 1/4" RK, and a crappy 1" RK. I have one new 1 1/4" RK left. They are just to damned expensive to return to Laguna, so it is Woodmaster CT from now on.

Bob

Here's what I do, and it works on all my RK blades.

First, make sure your wheels are parallel. The technique depends on your saw.

Second, get the tension right. Ignore the gauge that came on your saw. Ignore what you do with Suffolk/Timberwolf blades, as they have different tensioning requirements than most blades. If you have purchased a separate blade tension gauge (not the one that came on your saw), that should work. I use the 1/4" test. I put my index finger against the side of the blade about 3-4" below the point where the blade stops contacting the top wheel. I push until my fingertip turns white. If the blade deflects more than 1/4" with that amount of pressure, it's not tight enough. Once the tension is right, spin the wheels a few times until the blade tracks steadily.

Third , adjust the side blocks back or forth so that the bottom of the blade gullets are about 1/8" in front of the front face of the guide blocks. Before you do this, you'll need to push back the thrust bearing, to ensure that the thrust bearing (or ceramic block, if you have a Laguna saw) is not pushing the blade forward. (You don't want the thrust bearing to be touching the blade at all for this adjustment.)

Fourth, position the thrust bearings. You want them far enough forward that, when you push back on the blade until the back of the blade touches the thrust bearing, the bottom of the gullet is right at the front of the guide blocks.

Fifth, adjust the guide blocks. To do this, you must begin by totally loosening all of them. Then, one at a time, bring each one right next to the blade, but just barely not touching them. You want to have just enough room that a thin piece of paper will slip between the blade and the block, but no more than that.

STEP FIVE MUCH BE REPEATED EACH TIME YOU ADJUST THE BLADE GUARD HEIGHT. On most saws, when you move the blade guard up or down, there's just enough play that it will screw up your perfectly adjusted guide blocks.

Sixth, adjust for drift. This is the part that is most difficult to get precise. A BLADE WITH A THICKER KERF WILL TOLERATE DRIFT BETTER THAN A BLADE WITH A THINNER KERF. This is because, if you have a thin kerf, then any slight drift will cause the the back of the blade bump the kerf and twist the blade. With a thicker kerf, the same small amount of drift will still allow the back of the blade to ride free in the kerf. Drift will affect the quality of cut in both thin and thick kerf blades, but will cause much greater problems with a thin kerf.

To adjust for drift, start by moving the fence completely away from the blade. Take a piece of wood and begin a cut. Continue cutting slowly and, while you cut, watch carefully how the back of the blade sits in the kerf. The back of the blade should be dead-on in the middle of the kerf. You'll need to angle the blade a little to the left or right while you cut it until you can continue cutting straight and have the blade riding in the middle of the kerf. Then, stop the saw while holding the board perfectly still. Adjust your fence so that it is perfectly parallel with the edge of the board. Now, using your fence, make a fresh cut in the board. Several inches into the cut, stop the saw. Check the back of the blade to verify that it is perfectly in the center of the kerf. If it is not, adjust the fence again. Rinse and repeat. I usually have to make five or six cuts until I get the back of the blade to sit perfectly in the middle of the kerf.

I strongly recommend you watch this video on Laguna's website about how to use the DriftMaster fence to adjust for drift. Even if you don't have a DriftMaster fence, it does an excellent job showing how the process works, and you'll be able to translate it easily enough to whatever fence you have. http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 8228448001 Go to about 1:45 into the video, and that's where he begins adjusting for drift.
Now, resaw!

Keep in mind that any time you adjust the blade guard, you should adjust the guide blocks.

Hi, Bandsawblades are some strange guys...
today I bought 5 Woddmaster CT, this was the minimum I had to buy, otherwise the guy wouldn't start cutting and welding the blades. Ok, was quite a bit of money, but I wanted them.

So I went home to my bandsaw, and wanted to put on the new CTs, but then I recognized that the blade which was still on, a german made HEMA Ikarus, was actually quite still sharp. So I set up the drift, thickness etc. I was cutting sides, no backs, I somehow felt that the blade is not good for backs anymore.

So I started wih a billet of Osage Orange: Pefect straight cut, nearly no sawmarks. Resawed 5 side sets. Then switched to Swiss Pear, much more resistance, but still nice cut. Then some ziricote, got 2 Side sets, one I ruined, don't aske me how, but I have a too thin spot in one side. Then flamed Movingui, actally a soft, lightweigth wood. F..K what the hell, after one cut blade totally glocked up, dirty, oily. So I thought it would be over now, but deceided to clean the blade with aceton. After cleaning, another billet of Osage Orange perfectly cut. Then I tried Eucalyptus. OMG what is this, nearly could't push the board through, so much resistance, More or less burned my way trough the Euclyptus, blade drifted like a drunken Bavarian homless guy at the Oktoberfest. Luckily after sanding still totally useable....

So, I still don't know if the blade was too dull for the eucalyptus and the movingui, I still don't know why I killed one Ziricote side set (and dang, it was a pretty one...arrrggg posting.php?mode=reply&f=10101&t=33554# ), I am very surpirised how easy you can cut Osage Orange and I am more and more getting curiouse about the CT. Tomorrow is my big day....

If I would know which german company is producing the RK I would order one for comparison, but I did't find a blade which is CT tipped which such a thin kerf, and Laguna doesn't tell, what I ofcourse understand.

I wish evreyone a lucky resaw weekend.....
Cheers, Alex

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It's the thin kerf Waddy. Saves wood.

Man, this is a tough place to hang out. For the record, I was given a 3/8 blade for being a loyal customer. Now, dunno about u, but I aint selling my soul for that. I think Lance has hit the nail on the head. I do spend a lot of time aligning my blade and getting the tension right. I don't think we can or should discount Lances experience. One of the marketing aspects of this blade is the thin kerf. The other is the smooth cut.

Carrion, enjoying this thread very much.

Mike

I have not time to make a video about saw adjustment. I'll write something and answer any questions.

Once I have the saw in alignment I don't readjust anything when I change RK blades all the alignment adjustments remain constant.

What Kelby and Bob wrote are the basics but I carry them farther.

Top and bottom guides must be in perfect planes in all directions. The bolts don't automatically line them up. Vertically they must line up perfectly and be able to hold the blade in alignment. They really need to contact the blade, if you allow the "paper space" it is possible for some twist to occur in the thin RK blade. The ceramic blocks Laguna uses makes this an easy part as they don't overheat with light blade contact. If they actually touch the blade they tend to scrape (shave) off any debris rather than pass it between the guide and the blade. But you have to make sure that the ceramic surface is perfectly parallel with the side of the blade. If you have roller guides it will tend to drag material in that will cause the blade to flex around and change alignment. The entire side of the blade should be supported by a guide surface.

Readjusting the guides after changing the height is absolutely necessary. Like Bob I never move the height. The top guides are one of the biggest mis-alignment spots on the saw. When you raise or lower the height the guides will move out of parallel with the blade. They must be exactly parallel with the blade. When the post moves up and down it will twist slightly and the guides get pointed in a different direction, slightly and barely noticeable but enough to through off the RK alignment. It matters. Twist the post so the guide surface is perfect, then tighten it.

Setting the cutting height to 10.5 inch seems to be the maximum. Any higher and the blades can tend to start to wander.

It addition to the wheels being in plane the rubber on the top wheel must be aligned so that as the blade rolls off the rubber toward the top guide it is already straight and not twisting a little to get in line with the bottom tire. Just like on a car the rubber tires can be out of alignment and balance.

I don't reset the drift when I change RK blades. I don't know why but they never need it. But with other steel blades the drift always needs to be set.
However what I have done as part of the alignment setup is to set everything square. The table is square with the side of the blade. The fence is square with the blade and the table. In my case the fence is a power feed. With everything set square and changing between RK blades the next blade cuts straight, don't know why but I assume it is because the blades are made well? (don't attack, notice the question mark).

You have to keep the blade cool, bigger saw = longer blade = more surface to dissipate heat. My blades are 201". A little too hot and the blade is dull.

The above steps are not rocket science and most people already do them for set up. The main thing to remember is that the RK blade requires "perfect" alignment and other blades don't. So even though you think you have everything perfect you probably do not.

I tension my blades to the max. as the wood moves into the blade the saw frame must be able to keep the tension. Just because you set the tension on the blade when it is still does not mean that the tension is maintained under load with wood pushing on it. If the tension changes during the cut the blade might decide to go a different direction. Do you have any idea the force you are putting on the blade when you push wood on it?

There is more but let's see if anyone has any questions or comments before I go further. I don't want to lecture but am happy to carry on an educational conversation.

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Lance Peck

I don't know if bloodwood has silicate. Maybe it does? It is tough to cut and does dull the blades fast but not as fast as some woods that I know have a high silica content.

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Lance Peck

Yes but when dancing on the head of the pin there is a little adrenaline rush with the chance of falling that is good for the soul.
Actually I felt the same way until I finally figured out how to set up the RK blades, so I completely understand. If the Woodmaster would make the same quality cut and could be resharpened as many times at an equal or lessor cost I would use it also. But like I said before I hate to waste good wood, it is too precious. If the RK blade squeezes out even one extra set of killer wood it pays for it's extra cost and trouble.

What is the actual kerf of the Woodmaster. Not what is listed in the specs but how much wood is lost to the blade and sanding to remove the saw marks?



Do the bearings support the entire blade width or only a half inch?

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Lance Peck

I always allow about .062

I would love to get the RK to work. I have well over $1000 in blades collecting dust. I'm going to give it another try.

Lance when you say you tension the blade to the max do you mean you crank up the saw tension all the way or to the max allowable with the RK blade?

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Maybe there is not a real difference in procedure but what does differ is the need of more accuracy in the alignment that is a result of the procedure.
Why do some users of RK blades get perfect results and others get bad results? Because we get good results I suggest it is not a problem with blade quality and that you look further for the problem if you want to solve the mystery. (remember I'm not trying to talk anyone into using the blades, just letting you know they do work)



That is a good question because so far 100% of the "new type" RK blades I have used have been good.



Worth the effort is always going to be a personal decision. What is "priceless"? For me a "small" scrap pile is priceless. If you sliced up ten 8/4 billets and get an extra pair from each one that is 5 saved back and side sets (priceless).

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Lance Peck

New style or old RK?



I crank it all the way.

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Lance Peck

Do the bearings touch the blade and spin constantly?
Do the bearings get hot?
When an RK blade failed was it hot?

I use 1.25" RK blades so we should consider that there is a possibility that the 1" and 1.25" RK blades may be different in how they actually perform.
Is everyone that has problems with the RK blade using 1" blades?

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Lance Peck

I can only offer my opinion that the difference between 'perfect' and 'very, very, very good' makes some difference in the blade performance.



?? sorry you have lost me.

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Lance Peck

Hello Filippo Morelli,

I am sorry that you have these problems with your blades. This sucks, spending lots of money, wasting wood and time.

But don't forget, you are a customer, you have rights and there a laws. So ship your blades back, Laguna should pay for the shippment, ask for new ones, not resharpend because then you are loosing blade-life. Then try it once again.

Here in germany, and I guess also in the USA a ther a laws how to handle this. Laguna has to have the possibility to solve the problem, if they can't, they have to pay you back. If they claim you are not able to adjust the bandsaw, then they have to sent someone who has to show and proof that it is you and not the blade.

I am sure it is the blade. I am fulltime working in a sawmill and veneer slicing factory. We use LOTS of sawblades, and quite a few are sent back because of manufacturing mistakes. I think this happens quite often.

Of course I have also seen the videos on youtube, laguna hompage, facebook where people are succesfull resawing with this blade. But this is just the evidence that your blades are bad, otherwise they would work, at least a little bit.

Hope you get your money back, or working sawblades!

Alex

That quote is a reference to Sigmund Freud's theory of potty training, where if parent's are too strict, an anal retentive personality will develop in which the person is strict, orderly, rigid, and obsessive.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

New style Lance. Tossed the old style long ago.

2 things that peak my curiosity.

1.)How did you arrive at this setup. I don't see anything on Laguna's site that guides one in this direction.
Experimentation? Did the first time you used a RK work ok?

2.) Kelby's setup is quite different than yours and he states that it works for all his RK blades suggesting that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

By the way I have purchased all the RK sizes at one time or another from 3/4" to 2" so it's not just 1 blade and I gave up.

Also at 70 years old and using a band saw since my mid 20's I am somewhat familiar with band saws.
This old dog is still willing to learn new tricks.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498