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Agree with Ken use decent material you may not want to use AAA but good material is just that much more important so you don't have to fight junk to start. If your going to invest a 100 hrs of time shoot for the best. Know your 1st guitar won't be your best but better in means better out.
I would rather see you use good mahogany ( under $50 set ) than junk rosewood. A grade top $20 range.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I agree. If a person is going to make a guitar, do it right. I'm pretty sure I screwed up. I fell in love with the wood and got too excited about it. I did a first rate job with grain that won't stand the test of time. The humidity here would kill this guitar. I need to make the most stable neck I can. I'm wondering if I can laminate the existing neck to form a quarter sawn "joint"? Laser beams, suggestions?

It won't really go to waste. I always find uses for things. But I'd like to continue to use it in some capacity as a neck. The figure is outstanding. I'm smitten.

Suggestions?

-j

Flatsawn is fine, IMO. Fender uses flatsawn maple on almost all their electrics, and maple has quite high humidity shrinkage rates, so if it was a problem, it would show up there. Riftsawn (diagonal grain lines) is slightly more questionable, but probably still ok unless it's from near the center of the tree, in which case I'd watch it for a year or two before using it.

What's bad is curved or twisted grain. It's hard to tell on your neck whether there's any trouble. It seems to have some pores going in strange directions near the bottom left in this post http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=601532#p601532, but that may just be due to interlocked grain and perhaps a bit of runout on that surface.

It's definitely good to stock a few years worth of neck wood and keep tabs on all of them. Just because you pay big bucks to a luthier supplier doesn't mean you're sure to get a good one. Usually you can see problem grain, but not always. Best if you can pick them out in person to improve your chances, and then watch them for at least one, and preferably two years in uncontrolled humidity to verify any movement. I'll be bringing home a pile of walnut from Hibdon this Saturday after the gathering

I'm not that picky about flaws in back/side woods, as long as I can get the sides bent. But I do much prefer quartersawn for the increased humidity tolerance (though IMO you need to brace in lower humidity to take full advantage of it). Soundboards, low grade is usually fine if you're not picky about that pristine white look. If you want to build in the thin plate style, then runout is more of an issue. It's hard to find spruce without runout even if you are willing to pay for it. Redwood is often entirely runout-free even in cheap sets or scavenged house siding boards. I haven't built with cedar yet, but I think it's also less prone to spiral growth than spruce.

Grant Goltz built an awesome guitar a while back using some highly questionable woods, and says it's one of his best ever
http://luthiercom.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=3384
I think you have to have an account to see anything there, so here are the pictures:


But note, the neck is still flawless straight grain. Fingerboard is less perfect, but still looks straight and stable despite the filled voids.

This is sort of an interesting question. True, Sapele is not mahogany, but it is a close relative, botanically speaking. Sapele is definitely not junk. It's basically like a slightly denser version of mahogany, and can be used in the same way, more or less. It's a great material for a guitar, beginner or not.

I think people get confused because Philippine mahogany is not related to true mahogany at all, but the wood is somewhat similar. Then it's assumed the same holds true for American and African Mahogany. Those are however close relatives, and Sapele is a cousin. (any botanists are welcome to chime in.... ) The perceived value is closely tied to the monetary value. 80 years ago, it was american hog that was the cheap common wood.


Anyhow, I generally agree with the other posters. You don't want to use 'junk', but luxury woods aren't a great idea either. Use good basic materials IMHO, or you're wasting your time. However, much of what you pay for in luthier woods is simply aesthetics and snob appeal. Perhaps go with a basic A or AA top; and mahogany, sapele or walnut for the B&S.

Thank you gentlemen for your excellent insights.

I'm unsure if this wood is Sapele of Khaya. I've had it so long I don't recall and comparing it to pictures isn't identifying it clearly. It kinda looks like this and kinda looks like that. I'm really in love with this wood though, it's so pretty. While there's much work to bring it to exact size I wanted to see how it would shine up and it looks dazzling. I'm in love with it. Maybe I already said that but it's worth repeating. I don't mean to exactly mean it's junk in the literal sense but just that I had an appropriately sized piece just laying around. I'll take some pictures highlighting the grain so you guys can see it better.

-j

My local lumberyard has African Mahogany, Khaya, and Sapele all heaped on the same pile.
It's all the same color, and they look quite similar.
I have no idea what I bought, but it does not machine well.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

I believe Khaya is African Mahogany. Both Khaya and Sapele are on the stringy side, neither leave the wonderful clean edges like Honduran/Genuine Mahogany. I get much of our hardwoods from LL Johnson they take pride in having proper identification of the materials in stock. Generally, Sapele is harder and heavier than both African and Honduran Mahogany. I find the odor of Sapele strong and less than pleasant. Khaya is relatively odor free.

All that said -- I've heard some fine sounding guitars made of Sapele, actually similar to Rosewood. And also good sounding African/Khaya -- Sapele and Khaya topped guitars, not so much.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I'm rolling with the Sapele or Khaya just because I figure it's going to break anyway due to the glue. When that happens I'll start over with a nice piece of Mohagany. It's actually a bit of work to find first grade Mohagany.

Omg! Shipping charges are outragous! One place wanted just as much to ship it as the cost of the board. If a company tries to gouge me in shipping or handling I instantly write the company off. I hope you're listening. I'll never buy anything from you if you do that.

Last night I cut out a template and then resawed a headpiece veneer. I made it from a nice piece of walnut. Fairly straight grain with a wave of rolling figure in it. Obviously it was really easy. I'm going to practice inlay on this board too and see what happens. It isn't ideal tonewood or whatever but I really like walnut and can finish it to a very high standard. The color isn't black like an ebony headpiece but I can dye it. I wonder what sonic properties dye has of inhibits? Seems like it would dampen to me.

It's raining today so my building is limited to cauls and whatnot.

I'm always interested In your thoughts on these esoteric dilemmas.

-j

Some pics of progress. I'm not the best at stopping to take pictures so...

I've done a lot more than this but haven't taken any pictures.

Comments, criticisms are welcome. Do your worst.

-j

Nice to see the progress.
My only comment would be I prefer a shooting board for jointing the plates. Much quicker to check/retry than the arrangement with vice and clamp I see in the pic.
(P.S. it's Sagitta, but I had to check!)

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

The Sapele that I've used has been very nice. Certainly harder to carve than Honduran but it cuts cleanly with hand tools. However the Khaya that I've had (quite Pinkish in colour) was very wooly in texture, quite coarse. I burned it! I probably got the bad stuff.
The Sapele was much finer in texture with pores that are less open than Honduran. I don't see much wrong with Sapele, providing that you get stable examples. It's known for it's stability, at least that's what the wood databases suggest.

I agree completely, a shooting board would've saved me a load of work. I'm thinking the tool tray in my bench can provide a long enough track to do this is the future. I do have a shooting board but it isn't long enough to accomodate a soundboard. The clamp, joint, check, repeat ad naseum just about drove me batty.

I ended up buying a nice Honduras Mohagany board and starting over. True, carving Sapele is much more work but I felt like I got a nicer finish straight from the blade from the Sapele and it was actually prettier than the HM. I learned a lot by carving the Sapele so it was a worthwhile experience.

A few more pics.

And more

Question: I have no doubt that a dovetail neck joint is within my abilities but I want to use a bolt on neck (LMI type brass inserts) for serviceability. I'm concerned that the dovetail does not have enough area for the diameter of the brass insert so I'm not sure what to do. I chose this method based on playing a Santa Cruz and feeling like the neck to body joint was very, very solid. I was told this was how they did it. I suppose I could increase the width of the dovetail a tad and make a caul to press in both sides to keep it from splitting but I'm not entirely sure that will work.

Have you tried so dovetailing and inserts? Did the insert split the narrow end of the dovetail?

Did I read this right? You want to dovetail and add inserts? What's the purpose of the bolts?

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

So I don't have to use glue and the neck can be taken apart easily for service.

A bolt on neck would normally be a mortise and tenon joint. I wouldn't want to try an insert in a dovetail since there is not as much material up next to the heel.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Thanks, I was fairly certain that would be answer but I wanted to ask and be sure. I laid out the dovetail on my headblock but laid out a tenon on the heel.

A mortice and tenon or butt neck joint is normal for this type of insert http://www.lmii.com/bolt-on-brass-neck-insert-installation
Not much point in a dovetail, lotta work for no advantage.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.