J's "Questionable" Build

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murrmac

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:25 am

Koa

Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:37 am
Posts: 697
First name: Murray
Last Name: MacLeod
City: Edinburgh
Country: UK

Jimmyjames wrote:

Just as a CNC machine will never produce a guitar with real soul.

Actually, I would quite like to see one of these CNC guitar making machines in action ...

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Hesh

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:35 am

Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13666
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional

Alex Kleon wrote:

Jimmyjames wrote:

At this juncture I've yet to actually buy anything specifically related to Lutherie. Why not you ask? Because I'm trying to figure out exactly what to buy to minimize the "oops, I need this lil' dilly, and that lil' bit" and I've spent a fortune in shipping. I'd rather just kill two stones with one bird and get the whole lot. There's so many choices regarding a build "will the crystals really impart the finest tone to my guitar?". There's a massive amount of tools to do the same job: power tools, PRO-GRADE is announced with thundering authority, laser guided drill presses suitable for Darth Vader's Woodshop. And everyone says this tool is the best. I like tools I can sharpen. I'm primarily concerned with the type of steel a tool is made of. I've no interest in the fancy modern metal, cryogenically frozen to eight atmospheres. I just want it to work and get terrifyingly sharp. So I had to dig through all the sources of said tools and make some decisions. There was a bunch of paper and pencil keenly involved in this process, frantic scratching of graphite and soon I had 27 pages of notes, questions, ideas, a hijacked scheme culled from Cumpiano, random internet "gurus", and of course the folks down at The Official Luthier Forum, whom I might add are clearly the finest people you ever did meet.

It was kind of a mess. The woodworker in me felt as though I was staring at 54/379ths and wondering where I'd find such a ruler? So I set off to simplify. I condensed the entire guitar making process to simplified instructions, it now read on a total of two pages. I had conquered the massive amount of information into a digestible sum. I drew pictures of important measurements that made sense to me. Then I fought to simplify the tool list. I was generally a hand tool person but Cumpiano says "don't do this by hand several times. I needed to research alternative methods to get around buying a router. It wasn't that I didn't want to buy one, it was that I didn't want to own one. I'd routed many a channel by hand, even carved them. Who wants wires and bits they have to buy over and over. I didn't. I discovered lo and behold that guitars were successfully made before the advent of power tools. Dedicated men and likely some women made guitars completely without motors and cords. But how? Slowly I started to see tools that made sense to me. I contemplate each operation and how it will be achieved. Routing the binding seems like the most challenging woodworking part of making a guitar. The idea of a high speed router here makes zero sense to my inexperienced mind, I'm thinking it sounds like a disaster, I see a high speed motor causing outrageous chip out. Then I discover the Gramil and I'm sold, oh it comes with an old fashioned steel blade. I'm smitten with the Gramil, completely full of smit. I recompile my tool list over and over. There's the hardware store list, the specialist Lutherie supply list, dedicated tool company list and then there's tonewoods.

A feature of guitar players is that there's this part of their mind that doesn't grow up. All of us believed in nonsensical middle school era ideas. Clung to them like we were holding on to _The Raft of The Medusa_. Dirty fretboards are "seasoned" and play better, there's wood with "magical" properties if harvested by an axe when planets are aligned. We've all heard them out entire guitar oriented lives. Most if it pure bullspit. So what to choose? In the real world of guitars my only guidebook that's entirely sincere is my experience playing them and what I liked. At seventeen I got my first real guitar, she had an ebony fretboard that was as slick as oil. I was absolutely certain that wood was magic. That fretboard was worth every hour I worked at my crappy teenage job. The guitar itself was a hideous product of eighties hair bands, a fad that I gladly avoided but I was certain the classical guitar designed ebony fretboard was worth it. Later I bought a brand new Martin D1-R, the cheapest Martin I could get that was completely made of wood and there was some rosewood involved. This was the era when Clapton did "Unplugged" and I was hooked on that album and also really glad the days of heavy metal were numbered. Clapton opened up a new world of guitar for me and I was excited about it. I gladly abandoned the electric guitar, a repair shop actually stole my amp claiming they couldn't find it. I didn't care this acoustic thing was a visceral reality that made so much sense. The sound of that Martin with the rosewood was a step in the right direction but it lacked an ebony fretboard that I could glide upon. I noticed that I would routinely over power the top and it would distort. I'm very hard on a guitar, I'm not the guy who in a field picking daisies I'm the guy hitting it with all I've got when the dynamics call for it. The expressive nature of an acoustic guitar completely eclipses the capabilities of an electric and I was exploiting every bit of it. Later I would discover that another form of spruce would tolerate my excessive banging in a Collings OM. This guitar was my first real instrument. Was back to an ebony fretboard, the top could handle the beating. I played that thing eight hours a day. In my old age I will blame Collings for my inept finger joints. An OM was a small guitar but it was LOUD! I like the small, hotrod size, it felt more like an electric with all the benefits of acoustic. Over the course of my life I started to really figure out what I liked in a guitar. I wasn't the sort of person who had a quiver full of instruments. I just kept one and played it. From each guitar I had my own collection of absurd beliefs: ebony fretboards are for people who use the whole fretboard, rosewood backs and ribs are kind of harsh but I liked the volume and the speed of the attack. Some spruce is for gentle fingerstyle players and others for people that abused the strings. Mohagany seemed to usually be a better guitar but the sound was less harsh and the attack a tad bit slower. All guitars sound like utter poo when new, I regarded visiting a guitar store as form of torture because I knew I'd play a few. Bracing: no clue, bridge plate: even less of a clue, effects of other parts such as bindings, purflings, rosettes, mother if pearl were completely unknown. I was sure that a tighter built guitar was a factor so I would wing it with tonewoods that I'd experienced firsthand. I saw no point I trying to build an ultra exotic experiment. The tried and true firsthand experienced woods seemed like the most logical path. Everyone I've known who had a Brazilian Rosewood guitar had cracks and they babied their guitars to the point of not playing them. I don't look at guitars, I play them. I never bought with my eyes but with my fingers and ears.

I made lists, I searched the luthier supply houses, called the local specialized wood guy who basically said he had nothing I could use except ebony. It seemed like the Luthier specific places would have better quality because they knew more about what I was looking for than I did. My local guy didn't understand anything. He thought I could joint ebony and make a fretboard which I could but I seriously doubt it would hold up to real use.

And now a word from our Sponsors...

LMI has the Kit Wizard (more mythical Lutherie references) and compared to anyone else I was most impressed. I could choose nearly any type of material. I like options and I like things exactly like I like them. In the entire marketplace LMI's Kit Wizard is the clear winner. I salute you guys for doing that. Thanks. The other companies seem to have a different focus. Stew-Mac seems to be very tool focused and there's many ingenious ideas, some seem like the greatly improve the speed and accuracy of the job. I've read where people complain about the price of Lutherie specific tools and I think the complainers should make a tool from scratch for a very limited market, do marketing, branding, and experience firsthand the economic realities and then they can complain all they like. I for one am glad someone makes this stuff that's specific to the task. Thank you. These two companies appear to win the race for my money. LMI for the kit and I'm particularly impressed that they will do the parts of the job that can be cost prohibitive or particularly intimidating to do in the beginning for very reasonable prices. I for one am going full tilt on my guitar so I learn as much as possible but I'm glad someone offers these services should something go completely awry. Stew-Mac scores my money for many tools, they clearly have done some homework and provide instructions, demo videos, et cetera.

Individual wood supply companies are probably cheaper but realistically, it's a far greater hassle than the Wizard makes a very complex project much easier. Sold.

My total in tools and materials so far is a staggering $1,455 American dollars. Seems a paltry sum for the experience and skills gained. In subsequent builds I'm sure I'll add to my arsenal of tools and wood but for now all that I can do is pull the trigger.

I think I see a cage match with Hesh in the future! laughing6-hehe

Alex

Why because you guys now have another pedantic gentleman to motivate you even further in the benefits of learning to read?

I think that Jimmy and I are going to get along just fine and I am already enjoying his thoughtful posts and great mind too - welcome Jimmy!

These users thanked the author Hesh for the post (total 3): WudWerkr (Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:31 am) • Jimmyjames (Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:23 am) • Alex Kleon (Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:12 am)

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Haans

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:31 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 3081

Jim Watts wrote:

".... The glue I've got laying around is Titebond Liquid Hide glue. I glue up the scarf joint and clamp her into submission. All goes swimmingly and I let her dry for a day. ..."
Lots of problems reported with this glue. I assume you figured out not to use it based on this experience. Lot's of great guitars have been built with Original Titebond however. Also you should avoid titebond II & III. Although III works extremely well for gluing side purfling to the binding prior to bending. Both of these glues can creep under stress making them less desirable.

The only thing Titebond liquid hide glue is good for is gluing stamps to envelopes. Tape works better though...

These users thanked the author Haans for the post: Jimmyjames (Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:51 am)

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WudWerkr

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:11 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

Quote:

Why because you guys now have another pedantic gentleman to motivate you even further in the benefits of learning to read?

_________________
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These users thanked the author WudWerkr for the post: Jimmyjames (Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:18 am)

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Robbie_McD

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:58 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:34 pm
Posts: 1074
First name: Rob
Last Name: McDougall
City: Cochrane
State: Alberta

Reading is over-rated...
How about some pics?
:-)

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Hesh

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:15 am

Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood

Robbie_McD wrote:

Reading is over-rated...
How about some pics?
:-)

Yeah I'm with you Robbie who needs Tolstoy anyway..... now he was long winded....

+1 on Han's revulsion to that awful Franklin bottled rasta imposta genuine, imitation hide glue..... OTOH Mario liked it for lubricating fret slots and the longer open time for gluing frets which is a pretty good application IMO.

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Jimmyjames

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:50 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:46 pm
Posts: 254

...

Last edited by Jimmyjames on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

These users thanked the author Jimmyjames for the post (total 2): Plink (Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:22 pm) • Robbie_McD (Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:25 pm)

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Jimmyjames

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:24 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:46 pm
Posts: 254

murrmac wrote:

Jimmyjames wrote:

Just as a CNC machine will never produce a guitar with real soul.

Actually, I would quite like to see one of these CNC guitar making machines in action ...

I've seen one in the flesh at the Collings factory. I don't recall much about it really except thinking it was beyond my humble workshop, meaning I guessed it was a 100k machine. I could be entirely wrong. I think they're impressive for some things: making student guitars cheaply, intricate inlay, et al.

-j

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Jimmyjames

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:30 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:46 pm
Posts: 254

...

Last edited by Jimmyjames on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Robbie_McD

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:37 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:34 pm
Posts: 1074
First name: Rob
Last Name: McDougall
City: Cochrane
State: Alberta

A pretty standard choice is 15' for the back and 25' for the top....

These users thanked the author Robbie_McD for the post: Jimmyjames (Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:19 pm)

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Hesh

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:38 pm

Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood

Hey jimmy - Love the pic had me chuckling!

My radius dishes are 24" across. I have a 15' for backs and a 25' for tops and have built OM's, L-OO's, dread*ughts, and small jumbos with these dishes with great results.

I've always wanted to add a 28' for tops just have not gotten around to it...yet.

Also I added a 3/4" backer board (ply) doubling the thickness for stability enhancement and so far my dishes, now 10 years old, have stayed in good shape.

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Jimmyjames

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:46 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:46 pm
Posts: 254

...

Last edited by Jimmyjames on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

These users thanked the author Jimmyjames for the post: Hesh (Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:18 am)

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kencierp

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:20 pm

Koa

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:03 am
Posts: 1737
Location: Litchfield MI
Focus: Build
Status: Professional

CNC machines don't make guitars --- at least the three we have don't --- However CNC machines do the repetitive, precision tasks very well indeed, is that a bad thing?

I pretty much constructed my first guitar with nothing but hand tools --- the guitar sucked and for me so did most of the process.

The top four dish combos we (KMG) sell are 15' 28' -- 15' 25' -- 15' 40' -- 15' 52' The later being the brace contours used at the Martin factory. Its not a secret you can call and ask.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

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Clinchriver

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:48 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 1225
Location: Andersonville
State: Tennessee
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional

My bit of advice is worth exactly what it cost you. Lots of builders quote "well so and so says this or that and does it this way"............Take what you can from referenced material, get a good plan and figure out how Jimmy James is going to do it. Then make some dust build some junk and you will learn how to do it your way :mrgreen:

Domestic wood is cheap, your first guitar will not be perfect.

We have a local group that meets at the local Woodcraft the second Sunday of the month, lots of great guys 90+ names on the email list, three world class pros, 10 to 25 that show up regularly, and as near as I can figure 10 of us make dust on a regular basis 6 or 7 build guitars that we bring to show at the meetings, four are on this forum fairly regularly. If I'm guessing correctly thats probably typical of internet forums lots of posting not a lot of dust in the shop floor. build five or six and you'll know quite a bit more than you did. Good Luck

These users thanked the author Clinchriver for the post: Jimmyjames (Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:46 am)

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Jimmyjames

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:28 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:46 pm
Posts: 254

kencierp wrote:

Ken, I definitely don't think there's anything wrong with and not really knowing exactly what you do how could I? It wouldn't be fair to assume. I will admit I'm a bit of a Luddite and enjoy hand tools mostly because I've really disliked the sounds of mechanical devices my entire life. But I own a chainsaw and a regular handsaw and sometimes a chainsaw makes a painful job much quicker. I suppose it's all about the task at hand.

Thanks the information.

-j

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Jimmyjames

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:39 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:46 pm
Posts: 254

...

Last edited by Jimmyjames on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Robbie_McD

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:54 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:34 pm
Posts: 1074
First name: Rob
Last Name: McDougall
City: Cochrane
State: Alberta

Clinchriver wrote:

thats probably typical of internet forums lots of posting not a lot of dust in the shop floor

Interesting perspective - I had thought that most of us here were making lots of regular dust on the shop floor....

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Alex Kleon

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:56 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:32 pm
Posts: 3470
First name: Alex
Last Name: Kleon
City: Whitby
State: Ontario
Zip/Postal Code: L1N8X2
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

You can use this to plot your radius jigs. http://liutaiomottola.com/formulae/sag.htm

Alex

_________________
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These users thanked the author Alex Kleon for the post: Jimmyjames (Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:03 pm)

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johnparchem

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:57 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:42 pm
Posts: 1715
First name: John
Last Name: Parchem
City: Seattle
State: Wa
Zip/Postal Code: 98177
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

Jimmyjames wrote:

QUESTIONS: what's the best size for a doming dish?

..... Is a compass plane the most logical tool for digging out?

-j

I am not so sure the compass plane is the correct tool as it is shaped more like a cylinder than a sphere. If you do not want to use a router on a jig with a cut radius guide, you might make a depth map, Use a brace and bit and drill the correct depths. Then you could use all sorts of tools to dig out the dish to the point that there are only dimple marks. Then use a curved scraper followed by sandpaper to finish the dish. You can also make arcs where you can measure the depths by making a shipwright's compass. http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6168

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These users thanked the author johnparchem for the post: Jimmyjames (Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:04 pm)

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Jimmyjames

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:07 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:46 pm
Posts: 254

johnparchem wrote:

Jimmyjames wrote:

QUESTIONS: what's the best size for a doming dish?

..... Is a compass plane the most logical tool for digging out?

-j

I was thinking I would plane in direct lines towards the center working around the circle then smooth it out with sandpaper. Checking all the while with a radius jig and turning it 360 degrees until it is correct.

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johnparchem

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:36 pm

Contributing Member

The are instrument planes used to make carved top instruments that are curved front to back and side to side.

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Jimmyjames

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:45 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:46 pm
Posts: 254

johnparchem wrote:

The are instrument planes used to make carved top instruments that are curved front to back and side to side.

Ahh, as in a compound compass plane! Gotcha. Thanks John.

-j

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johnparchem

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:53 pm

Contributing Member

sorry I am not good with tool names, one of these ....

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Last edited by johnparchem on Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DennisK

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:55 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3625
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

Thanks for the explanation on Van Gogh

I do need to see some of his paintings in person sometime. To me, the sunflower paintings look rather flat and lacking in shading in photos. But perhaps the "glowing with their own light" effect compensates for it in person.

As a child of the information age, I always have trouble relating to the artists and craftsmen of past centuries, where the only way to learn things was from a master, and then you had to conform exactly to their methods. Nowadays it's so easy to get your hands on materials and basic techniques, and uniqueness is considered a good thing, so practically everything gets tried. Perfect for me, because I can't stand to conform, or do the same thing repeatedly.

Jimmyjames wrote:

I spend literally every day I the shop but I take breaks here and there and clean or try to learn something. I don't expect much from the first guitar but experience. At the moment I'm waiting on a truss rod to come in the mail so I can carve the slot, otherwise I'd be doing that instead of cleaning the shop.

Why not work on some other part then? Fingerboard, bridge, thicknessing the plates, preparing brace blanks... lots of tasks that will need done sooner or later and don't have prerequisites. And have you figured out what kind of side bender you're going to use yet? That could be another thing to make while you wait.

And to Clinch, my posting rate tends to correspond to my sawdust production rate

Working on guitars makes me more interested in talking about them.

As for what radius is best... that's sort of like asking what flavor of jelly bean is best (well, maybe not that simple since orange is the obvious answer there). If you have an "ideal" tone in mind that you'll be searching for over your years of building, then the radius will be part of that, and you'll have to find it by experimentation and intuition. But 25', 28', and 40' all seem to be pretty popular for steel string soundboards, and 15' for backs. And if you're carving the dish by hand, then there's also the option of doing variable curvature. Or you can do "cylindrical" arching (only curved across the grain, with a workboard made just by flexing a piece of plywood), or even a lateral recurve shape like Nigel Forster http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41025, which I'm not sure exactly how to go about creating.

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Clinchriver

Post subject: Re: J's "Questionable" Build

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:26 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 1225
Location: Andersonville
State: Tennessee
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional

Robbie_McD wrote:

Clinchriver wrote:

thats probably typical of internet forums lots of posting not a lot of dust in the shop floor

Interesting perspective - I had thought that most of us here were making lots of regular dust on the shop floor....

Just an observation, just checked this forum has 8,997 members. I'll bet monthly 200 or less do 99.9 percent of the posting and %100 of the building.

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