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Sounds like what I do actually LOL!

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I appreciate the neck jig too and how it has evolved over the years with different iterations increasing functionality.

But.... at the end of the day if you learn a decent methodology for fret work is it absolutely necessary for:

Builders of a few instruments a year: No

Folks who dabble in repair work: No

Where I think it can be an excellent option to have is in a small production environment where repeatability is important. Or with pro repair folks who may specialize in fret work and/or have some very, very demanding pro players as clients.

In production environments an intimate knowledge of set-ups may not be necessary once a desired standard set-up spec is developed and posted workers can simply use the neck jig to dial-in that standard spec. This is also where it may in my opinion as well become a bit of a crutch...

Something else that's on my mind regarding the neck jig is that although we have a neck jig we put over 1,200 guitars though our shop in the last 12 months and never used ours once.... Again methodology and how you do your fret work is very much a determining factor as is the "feel" that some folks develop over time combined with a high-level understanding of how necks, frets, strings, and players interact.

Being a bit of a Felix Ungar sort myself... I will also say that they make a great catch-all taking up a lot of space if yours is not on wheels and excellent for stacking old boxes and beer bottles. No disrespect intended but for me the fact remains..... 1,200 guitars in 12 months and no call for our neck jig.... Not exactly the sort of data that makes a neck jig a top priority for most in my view...

And although I am not by any means trying to dis the thing, far from it, it does have it's place and when it does it's an excellent option, it also reminds me of a $400 Peterson bench tuner. Lots of Luthiers who have these will tell you what I am suggesting here that the Peterson is excellent to put on display invoking confidence in clients who know what it is while at the same time when no one is looking we may use a $10 IPhone app from Peterson that has been checked against he bench-beast and then used daily for setting intonation....

1,200 guitars in 12 months and no call for our neck jig

Well that pretty much sums it!

The few guitars I repaired using the Teeter jig, all had "non-adjustable necks" classicals and old Martins

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Hesh,
Let me help you guys out with all that clutter. I'll give you twenty bucks for that old jig, including shipping.

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George :-)

Ok. I think I get it now. So if there are any problems with the neck, a systematic error under string tension if you will, then this helps iron that out? I can see that in kencierp's last comment about necks without truss rods more maybe.

But still for any given fret you only need the next one or two, maybe three to not buzz. That can be accomplished with a short flat file and some patience.

I could also perhaps see this jig being useful when you have a problem neck that needs a refret. That way you can maintain the shape of the neck with the problem in place and resurface the fretboard straight. Maybe?

Does this jig maintain a twist though? You know some times you sight down the bass side and see perfect relief and then you look down the treble side and see dead flat.

IDK I'm still struggling with this one

The real value in the jig is for a neck that does not behave like a perfect structure. Since necks are made of wood and wood does not have uniform properties, sometimes they do not bend evenly. I made my Teeter jig many years ago for one re-fret that was quite unusual. It was a bass guitar that had just received a refret at another shop. With the strings slack the frets were perfectly straight, but when the strings were brought up to pitch there was an upward bend and twist at the 5th fret that was quite severe. I turned the instrument over and imediately saw the problem. The grain of the neck took a sharp bend at the 5th fret. So I built the jig and refretted the bass. When I was done the frets had a bad hump and reverse twist at the 5th fret when slack, but straighted right out under string tension resulting in normal relief.

I think some guitar necks have a little bit of this unpredictable behavior, in that they have small irregularaties that sometimes prevents getting the optimum action. The jig neutralizes these.

I use my own version of a neck jig and like the control but am on a never ending quest to speed up the time required to mount an instrument safely.
Used on one type of instrument over and over (a la Collings when I was there) it would be a piece of cake. But no sooner is it configured for an electric than I need to mount a Mandocello in it.
I would give it up in a heartbeat if I felt I could do as good a job faster w/ out it.
I have never satisfied myself that weight on the shoulders or the way the truss rod acts on the neck is close enough to actual string tension to rely on.
If an instrument is weighted to duplicate string tension when it is static adding the pressure of a hand and leveling device will change the dynamic of leveling slightly. To say nothing of the pressure shifting as a lengthwise movement is make. Not relevant on a Mando but a wispy electric? To exhale on some electric necks is to move them. Necks also respond differently depending on where they are supported.
I'm not sure I will ever do enough fret jobs to predict exactly what is going on.
I do believe if I had enough time to carefully measure exactly what was happening to many different instruments loose on the bench I could develop a sense of how to manipulate things, "freehand" but that has time costs as well.
Obviously many fine fret jobs are done w/out one but as many point out, fretwork reputation often hinges on the tough ones and the chase for lowest possible action heights.
So, even though I dislike the time and risk of anchoring an instrument to a rigid torture rack, I still do it.
I'm always looking to make jigging time insignificant.
But would rather, "evolve" past it altogether.
I guess that makes me an aspiring caveman.

JF the last time that Dan Earlywine was in our shop he used the term "rubber necks" to describe what you are speaking of. This is when tension AND placing the instrument in the playing position can be helpful. The neck jig is not however the only way to achomplish this with the methodology for fret dressing also being an opportunity to have a great deal of control over reshaping a fret plane.

I'm thinking of putting together a bit of a toot for some of the newer or hobby builders that may be helpful to OLFers. It would be a fret dressing tutorial that covers the basics or enough to take a hobby builder 90% of the way to an excellent fret plane, which, by the way, may exceed any results that many folks have ever had prior. The rest of the nuances would really require much more understanding of set-ups and everything related to same as well as the interplay between the various elements. We do teach this stuff too and have classes here in our shop on some weekends here in the beautiful people's republic of Ann Arbor....

If anyone is interested in a tutorial on fret dressing here on the OLF and/or our classes please let me know.

I will drop my 2c in the mix.

Been repairing for a long time, Mainly setups, fretwork and bridges. Never had a need for a jig to set up a guitar and probably never will.

When I first started doing this there wasn't the Internet or many books or even schools that taught it. And there weren't people in the business selling tools to fix guitars. I learned by just doing it and figuring out what works and what doesn't. I mean we are talking wood here... Wood moves all the time even if you put a little metal rod through it. I am just not understanding this whole concept of treating a guitar neck like you would a car frame. That is what you do with a car that has been in an accident. Put it on a jig that doesn't look too far away from that neck jig. But you are straightening metal which doesn't change shape with the humidity.

I have had a couple of times where after doing a fret job I put the strings on and I didn't have the adjustment I like using the truss rod so I have pulled the strings and put a bit of arch in a neck using the truss rod and then re-flatten the frets but I can probably count on one hand how many times that has happened. The only case I could remotely see using it would be on a neck with no truss rod but careful observation and a few measurements when the guitar is strung up is all that is really needed. Also a good understanding of what you are doing helps.

I agree with Hesh that a good repair person doesn't need a crutch.

I personally think that 90% of these "specialty tools" are gimmicks to make money and nothing else. Some of them make a job easier but repair people have been doing these jobs for quite some time without them. Can a shop say it saves them money because it saves time? Sure, you can justify just about anything you want to if you try hard enough.

OK, I am off my soapbox now...

Cheers,
Bob

Think it may be a little insulting to call a tool you don't own and never used a crutch? -- for the record your auto body analogy is a --- well let say you missed the mark by a mile since its clear you do not understand how the device works, the idea is that you let the wood be wood and do its natural thing. The tool was invented for a purpose -- fix guitars with screwed up non adjustable necks or very squirrelly necks. I used it and worked perfectly. If you feel you personally don't need it great. I think its a total over kill for just fret work too -- but if the owner of the tool believes they can do better work by using it --- so be it. Or are they not worthy to be repair persons and we should call the guitar repair police?

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

It's a valid and useful jig. Because one chooses to use it or not has no relation to the skill level of repair person.

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David Radlin
http://www.facebook.com/radlin.guitars

@dradlin


I'll give you that... I was just stating my personal opinion (hence the "My 2c) =Not a fact.

You are entitled to yours as well.

@kencierp


Actually I do know how it works even though I have never used one. But my analogy is still correct. They both help align the object they are intended to repair. On a frame machine the body man uses a ram and heat to align the frame. The frame machine tells him when things are lined up. On a a guitar you hold the neck in a specific position and the repair person makes the frets level to align to the jig. So they really are quite similar. (I worked for 20 years in body shops and have helped align many frames).



Lets see... "screwed up non adjustable necks" I have fixed many necks with no truss rods or non adjustable truss rods and there is a specific way to do it without needing a jig to do it. I am pretty sure repair people have been doing it for many years.



That tells me that even with a fancy jig the neck will still be "squirrelly" and probably will keep moving after you take it off of the jig anyway. So there is a fix for that as well. But putting it on a jig just to level the frets is only a "temporary" repair and I would think a waste of the customers money. The "squirrelly" is what you really should address.


So now we get to the real "meat" of the issue... if the owner of the tool "believes"

I will just quote myself here...



Cheers,
Bob

Sorry Bob -- It seems you still may not have the concept (I may be wrong that happens often) -- when you use this fixture as intended and designed all the frets are removed and the entire fret board is planed level in its true position all the slots recut all the frets replaced. This is not (at least the Teeter version) for tweaking and it is not a crutch -- its a brilliant cure.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Hesh, you guys don't use a neck jig?
One thing I would say on a neck jig is do not judge it's worth by the price s.m. charges for theirs.

What a neck jig really is is a holding fixture. It can be used to pseudo simulate string tension which can help with predicting relief in non adjustable truss rods during finger board planing it can be used to hold a guitar steady when leveling frets.
Why is that helpful? I have noticed a completely unsupported neck can flex up to 0.050" at the nut end while the board or frets are leveled. A neck supported at the nut and body end can still flex approx 0.020". This suggests that supported is probably a better condition for fretwork than unsupported for maximum accuracy when leveling frets or fret boards.
I would suppose that if cost and space where not a factor, every luthier would find at least one instance where a neck jig would help.
@rusrob, I do agree that there are a lot of gimmicky tools out there, and even though the cost of the s.m. Jig may make one think it s a gimmick, a neck jig is certainly not a gimmick, but a tool that attempts to aid in solving the problems that we all are familiar with when fretting.
It doesn't really do anything for you, it just helps have more control.

Now for the best solution, use a plek. I haven't gotten to try one yet but from the description I have been given about them and how they work, it would seem that they can do it all. But then again for 250k it had better!

yawnnn

I think the issue is, how accurate does the fret plane ( can a curve be a plane?) need to be?
+/- .001"? .005"? .010"? At some point it matters.
Errors stack up. Error from the fret job+ gravity,+ hand pressure,+ wood movement+ unpredictable t- rod adjustment etc.
The closer the fret plane is to perfect at the start, the more tolerance for errors that can"t be controlled.
The fact that pretty good works for most does not mean it's ok for all.
Older is not better, newer is not better, better is better.
Ideally, we would know what accuracy was required by the player, give him that, and not ask him to pay for any more. How do you do that.
If the point of maximum relief is shifted north or south by a fret can anyone translate that into real world implications?
I can't.
I think it would be quite a science project.
It does seem as though Stew Mac has strayed into product pushing at times but Dan Elewine certainly came up w/ the neck jig initially to improve his own work.
Even if I never used it again, I would have gotten much information on neck behavior under string tension from having used it in the past.
It is illuminating to watch dial gauges move as you push and pull on places w/ your hand. A view you can't quite get even w/ painstaking mapping w/ a straight edge and feeler gauges.
You see just how stiff necks are not.
It is reassuring to see those gauge needles stay put as you plane and sand the fgbd.

@kencierp


I do understand. Whether leveling the frets or the fretboard it still aligns the "plane" to where it is under string tension. You can split hairs on my words but I understand the concept.

@uvh sam


I have no problem with people that believe a jig or special tool can help them do there job better.

Maybe my comment about people making tools is just a gimmick was a bit over the top, but again I refer to my first comment:



Everyone is entitled to theirs and I respect that.

Cheers,
Bob

For sure bob, no offense taken
I just wish stew Mac would sell plans or something more affordable because if I was starting luthiery today, there is no way I would buy one for what they ask.

Right! Ok I get it now. It's to save problem necks. I've just been telling customers for 20 years they are just screwed hahahha! I've definitely come across many of these bizarre neck issues though far and few between. This helps clear it up though, I can see it useful for a full refret and resurfacing on a problem neck for sure.

But...does beg the question though, would it be better to let a customer know their neck it screwed and should be replaced or does this fix actually last? What if for example you are dealing with reaction wood in the neck? You correct it but then the winter comes and now you have amplified the problem?

I've always found this jig curious and enjoy this discussion.

Actually I think one could be made pretty easily. Just a piece of stable wood, some threaded rod and some clamping devices. It doesn't look that complex to me.

That was one of the reasons for my comment " 90% of these "specialty tools" are gimmicks to make money" Probably 3/4ths of the specialty tools I have I made myself. Part out of the fact I can't see putting out the big bucks for something I can make myself, and partly I find it enjoyable to figure out what I need and how to make it. I guess if I had a big production shop where I didn't have the time to spend on building a tool I would probably buy it, but my guess is that there are very few of us here that are so busy we don't have the time since those people wouldn't have time to fritter away reading and commenting on this forum.

I know... Probably another controversial comment on my part.... so please don't flame me for it since it is just my point of view... (which really means nothing anyway)

I do this more for fun and to make a few bucks in the process and probably wouldn't be happy if I had guitars stacked up for repair and clients crying to get them done... If I have 1 guitar waiting to be fixed I start to panic...

Cheers,
Bob

There is really some value in the neck jig that is hard to appreciate until you've used it enough, or rather, until you've encountered enough cases which truly demanded it's use.

Still, there were a few aspects of it where I found it a bit lacking for a few reasons. First, the simulated forces are perpendicular to the neck, which does not always perfectly replicate distortions brought on by longitudinal forces of the strings. Second, the supports are centered and do not differentiate across the bass and treble. Third, as wonderful as the control and support is, it is static, and there are times when I would prefer dynamic to better control differential ranges or levels of relief or fall away across the board.

Here was one of my attempts to account for and incorporate some of this control in the the jig some years back -



In the end though, after failing to be able to fully work out al the bugs and streamline the setup to my satisfaction, we ended up refining other methods outside of the jig which still places the neck under tension, and includes two points of static support and one dynamic, controlled to a large part by hand, but incorporating reliable reference and gauging methods from calibrated beams and more traditional machinist lapping methods.

The trick with the current methods (and one of the reasons I don't like to give an overly abbreviated summary), is that if you don't fully understand the how's and why's of each step there is potentially some room to mess things up (perhaps more than is allowed by the neck jig). If you do understand all the underlying principles though, and properly abide by the rules of gauging and reading your references (which does require some discipline and practice), then the level of precision and range of control over wild variables can actually be expanded, and in a rather efficient manner to boot.

You can certainly learn a lot by using one, and I don't know that I would have ever developed my current methods as they are had I not worked so much with this tool to expose them in the way that it can. Still, knowing thoroughly what it can offer and demonstrate, and what value it can bring in many circumstances, I've come to prefer some different methods of control which I find both more efficient and allowing for even greater control and precision with the right techniques.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Before I hit the long and winding road to our shop I wanted to share a few more thoughts about the neck jig.

First Bob's analogy likening the jig to perhaps an auto repair jig or tool is not at all a bad analogy in my mind. It does indeed take up a great deal of space.... Seriously though a frame jig provides a visual representation of what the thing is measuring. So too does the neck jig. The frame jig represents the data for we humans to interpret, so too does the neck jig. They are both tools, both useful, and both nearly always and only to be found in the facilities of folks who work in the respective trades. True a hobbyist may also purchase a neck jig, frame jig too, but it's not the norm nor are either necessary for a hobbyist.

So to be perfectly clear as to my own humble opinion on the matter a neck jig is not something that a hobby builder or someone who dabbles in repairs needs - again in my opinion.

Can the value of the neck jig be received with other methods and tools? Yes. Is the neck jig a valuable tool in some very specific circumstances - absolutely although again we can receive this value with other methods.

I'll add that as a teaching tool I think that the neck jig would be pretty cool in that it can visually quantify complex concepts and do so in a repeatable manner. This is why you will find them in some of the better schools, Sam.

But in my way of thinking.... (scary as it may be at times....) a neck jig is also not unlike a PLEK. How many great guitars have never been PLEKed? For that matter how many great guitars have never had the Lutherie S&M experience of being strapped into a neck jig?

So don't get me wrong it's a great tool and has it's uses. For me though with the volume that we produce from our multi-Luthier shop when I evaluate the potential "value" of a tool what's key to me is 1) does it provide real value to our very valued clients and 2) are there other ways to provide this value with perhaps less opportunity cost to our business AND Mr. and Mrs. customer and 3) does the value received out weigh any and all associated costs be they monetary to other?

So again we have one, have not used it in over a year, produce a very high volume of completed repairs while maintaing a very high level of client satisfaction. If you noticed my measure of value for any Lutherie tool includes a judgement call on what value is provided to our clients because at the end of the day that's all that really matters to me - our clients.

We can achieve what the neck jig can illustrate (you still have to understand what to do with the data....) we believe faster and every bit as reliable. We can do more too, things that the neck jig was never intended or designed to do and would be limited from this if we solely relied on the neck jig.

The only real agenda that I have here in this thread is to try to make it clear to some of the newer builders and repair folks that if you are receiving the impression that the neck jig is required for what you do..... it's most certainly not. And I also wish to suggest that there other ways to achieve the same results and even more by the way and that's what we prefer to do.

Great thread, great posts by all! Off to work here.....

Ditto!

The only real agenda that I have here in this thread is to try to make it clear to some of the newer builders and repair folks that if you are receiving the impression that the neck jig is required for what you do..... it's most certainly not.

Totally agree

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Ditto, Ditto

I wish I had said that...

Cheers,
Bob

Have one used once prefer the method I learned at CF Martin
Use what works for you. I know many that don't own or use on.
Wayne Henderson I never saw use one.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it