Official Luthiers Forum!

Today I picked up a 3M respirator because I've been spraying without wearing them for a while... no ill effects but who knows down the line right?

Well it made a HUGE difference. I used to use a cheap mask and bought some Japanese organic cartridge to go with it, and while that mask made a difference you could still smell a little bit of the lacquer. Well I wore the 3M respirator today when spraying a guitar and what a difference. The filtering was so good that I didn't even know there was lacquer fume at all!

Stewmac sells one that's supposed to be pretty good but I didn't want to order stuff from Stewmac and pay shipping on it. The 3M mask costs as much as Stewmac in Taiwan but it worked really well. I placed it in the original bag it came in after I'm done using it, hopefully it will prolong the life of the cartridge.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I use a 3M respirator as well. I considered StewMac's respirator, but I would be stuck having to order cartridges from them, and what if they discontinued or upgraded their offering? Where would I go then? The 3M products I can get local, really fast. If i need new cartridges I can go down to my local store and get them, not wait 3 or 4 days for them to come in while I'm sitting looking at guitars that need to be finished.
P.S. : and yeah, way huge difference. I finish outside, and even then with plenty of fresh air I would still get big clouds of finish fumes blowing my way when the wind decided to change. My asthma made things much worse. It did not take me long to go get the proper respirator, lol. Wouldn't be caught without it. Ever.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

I have to go to special stores to find 3M respirators or its refill in Taiwan, because not enough people here use respirators like they should so most stores don't even have them. They just use surgical masks, albeit some have active carbon in them (not that it does much good... you can't even get a good seal around it). The 3M respirator is pretty comfortable, much more than the N95 mask I use for dust. Now I just need to know where can I get particulate only filters that fit those 3M respirators so I don't kill the organic cartridge because I use it only for dust?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

If you have cheap lungs, buy cheap filters.
Otherwise, buy 3M.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

In Taiwan we do have the best healthcare system in the world. Procedures costing 10,000 or more in the US costs 300 dollars in Taiwan. It could explain why people here dont wear respirators...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I don't see how anyone would spray nitro without a proper respirator, unless they have a death wish.

I have heard that it's a good idea to store the organic vapor cartridges in an air tight bag for storage so they will last longer.

I use the P100 2097's for when I'm making lots of dust. It also has nuisance level organic vapor protection, which is good for the occasional CA accelerator use, varnish touch ups, and the like.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007ST ... UTF8&psc=1

For light dust I sometimes use the N95 paper respirator with a check valve. I find I breathe better in the 3M half face respirator, but I like the lightness of the paper masks. So I switch it up sometimes. I won't use a paper mask without a check valve any more because it makes me feel like I'm suffocating.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MP ... UTF8&psc=1

I wear mine anytime there is dust or fumes which ends up being most of the time. I swap the cartridges depending on what I'm trying to protect myself from and keep the carbon ones sealed in a plastic bag when I'm not using them.

What is the life of a cartridge once open? I don't need one very often, but I assume it ages even in storage. I don't mind using a new cartridge each time I use it if that's what's needed, but I'd rather not throw money away just for fun. Are they extended in the freezer like batteries?

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Mike Lindstrom

My understanding is that carbon absorbs stuff, so once exposed, they keep absorbing until saturated. I would think that once they are done for, you will be able to smell the fumes, and that will be an indicator. I have also heard that plastic zip lock bags may not be air tight long term, so the cartridges can continue to age. A way to seal them air tight will prolong their life.

I may be completely off base here, this is just what I'm basing my own habits on. If I'm wrong, I may be writing a new song called "The Luthier's Lament," or maybe "Guitars Ruined My Life."

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I guess you could always vacuum bag it or something for maximum life, but that's a lot of trouble and not sure if the cartridge life saving you get is worth it. I guess sealing it in a ziploc bag is about the best we can do to prolong its life.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Yep, zip lock bag for mine. They are several years old now, and still seem to work fine. I'll find out in a while, when I start my finish.

Come to think of it, wrapping them in plastic wrap before putting them in the bag might not be a bad idea. anything to just slow down the rate at which air can get to the carbon.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Or remove the cartridge and place it in the bag individually, rather than the whole mask. This limits the volume of air it can come into contact with

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

That is what I was told by my friend who paints cars. He's not Google or 3M or anything, but I trust his advice.

Plus I think I also Google'd it years ago.

He said to keep the cartridges in the bag they came in. I'm starting to smell some solvent through mine so it is time for a cartridge change.

I use to paint cars for a living many moons ago and I have a 3M respirator that I still use. When you get use to it you will know exactly when it is time to change filters. It will start to get slightly harder to pull air through and that is when I changed mine. Now that I don't use it everyday it is more difficult to tell but I can still feel the difference. A good cartridge should be almost as easy to pull air through as breathing without it on. Now I can tell when I feel the respirator pull slightly against my face... it is time to change.

I don't store mine in a bag, it just hangs on a hook over my mixing bench, maybe a bad habit but that is what I do...

I've been using a Gerson mask for a few years. When not being used, it goes into the foil lined ziplock bag it came in.

Alex



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Fillippo I use this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BR ... UTF8&psc=1

Spyder, your assumption is correct in my experience. Once you start to smell fumes it's time to replace the cartridges. When the white element of the cartridge (the type I use anyways, linked below) starts to turn gray then they are getting close to worn out.

http://www.amazon.com/3M-Organic-Cartri ... +Cartridge

RusRob - That's a good point. I recall now that it gets harder to breathe...didn't make the connection with worn out cartridges!

I used the same 3M unit for remodel work and just kept using it in the shop. I think they work well but make sure you get the correct size for your face. I keep mine in a plastic container between uses - probably about the same as using a ziploc bag. I always keep a set of spare filters on hand and change it if I can smell anything, if it is hard to draw, or I just think it's time to change them. There is a flapper valve on the output side that can get sticky with sweat and condensation and that can also make it hard to exhale. I clean the valve and wipe down the mask with alcohol when I change the filters.

I also use the dust masks with the one-way valves for sanding. A bag of 10 N95 rated masks is about $10. I reuse them till they get hard to breathe through or they get dirty so a bag of 10 lasts a long time.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

the 3M 7500 series is the way to go when on a budget...they seal very well unless you have a beard, in which case you really need to at the very least trim it very short before spraying...the all black one that is a step below is really a joke and by the time you get it to seal well it really hurts the face

the trick I use for making sure it is sealed correctly is to stick my hands over the filters and draw in air...if the mask doesn't suck up against your face, it's not on correctly (check the fit with both the upper and lower straps and also adjust the way it sits on your face) or you need to do a bit of hair trimming...

I almost always end up buying new filters between spray sessions because so much time tends to pass and I'd rather spend a few more bucks that worry about being poisoned (and that has happened once, and once only...things seemed OK but the massive headache proved otherwise)...I forget the specifics on the life span but it is for sure determined by both amount of product it has filtered out and also simple time passage...I would certainly feel comfortable using the same filters on a single guitar as the amount of time that passes waiting for layers of product to cure enough is pretty minimal...but after a month has passed I start to worry about it, and as noted would rather spend a few bucks more and feel safe

I thought if you can smell the lacquer then it's time to change it... not sure how long it takes though. The respirator is much easier to use than the N95 paper mask (for dust) and if I could find some dust only filters for it, I would wear it more...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I have used a 3M respirator for years. It is easily the best investment I've made in my shop. Most important is finding a respirator that is comfortable and fits your particular face. Once you have that it is no problem to wear all day long if need be... besides finishing I use it whenever I run power tools that generate fine dust and have found it great for keeping allergic reactions to problem woods at bay. Even with good dust collection you can have problems... a $20-30 respirator is all you need to be safe.

Why? Nothing I use is eye irritant.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

If it damages your lungs, it damages your eyes too. If you don’t use a full face respirator, use goggles. At the very least, spray outdoors…upwind. I just started building again and spray in my enclosed garage…I can feel the sting of the lacquer so I use goggles over my glasses. My glasses kept fogging up today…was 70% when I sprayed so I took off my glasses and shot blurry…but kept the goggles on. Would have done the opposite when I was younger. Don’t mess with your eyes. I want to buy a 3M full face like the one Filippo linked up to but I’m thinking it might fog up without a pump. I’m still going to buy it anyway.
I date my canisters. When I use to build 30 or so years ago I bought a respirator and used it for 10 years without changing the cartridges. One guitar a year so I didn’t bother…I always wondered why I could still smell the lacquer fumes.
Last week while spraying I started to smell the lacquer but thought the straps were loose. Yesterday when I was setting up for today’s final session I could smell the lacquer when testing the respirator…it sat for a week and still had fumes stuck in the charcoal or something. The smell was strong…a lot stronger that I thought last week. You do get dulled to the smell too. I was hoping to get thru this last session before dumping the cartridges but replaced it. I won’t be spraying for another 6 months or longer and thought it would be a waste…but…
Those canister were dated Jan 2013. I sprayed 3 guitars in Jan 2013. This past month I sprayed 6 guitars. I usually spray 4 coats 3 sessions.
Mike_P has the best advice…change between sessions…that is what I’m going to do even if I don’t smell the fumes. I spray 3 guitars together then 3 more after the first 3 are completed. I think it would be even better to change it after the first 3 guitars are done…but the fumes have affected my judgment.
The P100 2097 filter is good, easy to breath. I don’t use my 95’s anymore. I also bought the cap that lets you put the 2097 on top of the vapor canister… so it catches the fumes and particulates. I’m thinking of using it when I power sand a lot of exotic woods like rosewoods, ebony, etc. I think the compounds in the wood are bad stuff to be breathing if you’re concerned about getting sensitized. I can’t really smell the wood when I’m using just the 2097 filters so maybe the compounds aren’t getting vaporized a lot so maybe its overkill. I notice an itch in my hands when I touch exotics. I think even maple affects me and on and on. But then fiberglass makes me itch just thinking about it.
Buy spare filters too. It’s hard but don’t cheap out on health stuff. When I was younger it was always “what for?” “no need”. You’ll understand when you get to be my age. You’re gonna wish you managed the fire better.

While we're at it lets just wear a respirator everywhere we go... after all there are plenty of harmful yet invisible stuff out there, and who knows if a terrorist might decide to release poisonous gas...

Kinda like this...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

...or you live in Beijing. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... quare.html

Anyways - back on topic!




I will never again spray nitro in my shop until I build a dedicated high quality spray room. And when I do I will start using a full face respirator. Heck I might even treat it like an IDLH situation. That stuff is nasty. I was sick for three days last time I sprayed. I thought my liver was about to give out on me.

If you think nitro is bad... I heard those 2k stuff that many guitar companies use (same as car stuff) is worse... They said one breath of the fume is enough to do serious damage to your health.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com