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I think it was Rick Turner who said here a while ago "If you haven't worked repairing and done 1000 + set ups, you shouldn't be selling your guitars" or something along those lines. A little extreme for sure, and if you build a nice guitar hopefully sooner or later it will get a good set up. There is a learning curve no doubt and unless you do a lot of repair work it's hard to get your chops down. For me the 16 I've finished, the few that have come back that I've tried to get set up better and the few foolish friends who let me practise on their guitars might amount to 25 or so attempts. I am getting better but like many things the more you learn the more you realise there is to it. It sounds simple enough. Flat frets, sting height at nut, string height at 12th, a little relief. Bingo? Rarely for me.

I'm hoping some of the kind folks here who have done enough to have it dialled in might chime in here and help out some of the people that don't for whatever reason don't do repair work. So here's the scenario. Let's say you have a new build. It's sitting on whatever you use to support your guitars for set up. Frets are fairly flat but final dressing hasn't been done. String slots are cut in the nut but final height at the nut hasn't been done and same with saddle. Fitted and the top shaped but is high. And just to make it simple, you're going to use light gauge strings and set it up is for a medium handed player, strums with a flat pick.

I'm just beginning to realise how all the aspects of a set up are interconnected. If you change one thing how it affects another. My latest lesson was that if you take relief out of a neck you may have to cut a new nut. So being that all things are related, where would you start? What order do you tend to go?

Thanks! Life is too short to play a poorly set up guitar.

Best of the Season,
Danny

Hi Danny,

Doing a good setup does take a lot of practice, and you need to know going into what kind of setup you are shooting for (light or Med, strumming or fingerstyle, or maybe both?). I would also say that a proper setup cannot be done until all your fret work is done.Here is brief summery of what I do.

-When I string a guitar for the first time I start with having my frets totally finished (levelled, polished and ready to go).
-I Start with a nut blank. Fit it and cut the string slots. At this point the slots are left shallow.
-Fit a saddle a blank to the slot. I radius it at this point but do not compensate it. The saddle is also a bit tall.
-I use a 2-way truss rod. I start by finding the neutral point of the rod and tighten it a bit for my starting point.
-Next I install a set of strings and let the guitar for a while so that it adjusts to having string tension on it (a few days ideally).
-After it has sat for a while I check it over to make sure everything is stable and have a look at the relief in the neck. I will adjust the truss rod if necessary.
-Then the first thing I tackle is the nut. I cut all the strings slots to final depth. I don't worry about shaping or polishing the nut till later.
-Next I start on the saddle. I check the string height at the 12 fret to see what material needs to come off the bottom. At this point all the strings are coming off the front edge of the saddle. I remove material from the bottom of the saddle to get the string close to final height. Than I start working on the intonation. I check it and then mark on the saddle where I need to make adjustments. I will usually have to make 2-3 adjustments to the saddle (stringing it up and checking the intonation each time) before I am happy with it. When I am close to having the intonation set I will remove the last of the material from the bottom of the saddle to bring the string to their final height. Once the string height and intonation are set then I will go back and shape and polish the nut and saddle.
-If the guitar belongs to a local customer I will have them bring the guitar back in a few weeks or months for a checkup to see if any further adjustments need to be made once the guitar has had more time to settle.

I've found this method works well for me, hope it helps.

Josh

_________________
Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Danny bro back in the Day when Rick Turner walked the walk on this very forum no one fought him tooth and nail more that I did about his seemingly outrageous claims, chest stuck out, I'm better than all of you guys talk. Then I met David Collins, begged him to put together a simple course for me in set-up only for my own guitars. I took that course.... became an apprentice for several years, and the rest was history for me.

That was eight years ago, thousands of set-ups for me ago, and you know what? Rick was right, I was wrong, R - O - N - G......!

I used to agonize over this purfling or that purfling, which bridge pins to use, my own stealth binding, how pretty that back and side set is/was, BRW....., parabolic/tapered braces, etc.

These days I realize and know from experience that the set-up on a guitar is likely as important as anything else AND where many builders miss the boat/mark. I most certainly did....

The set-up is basically the user interface to an instrument. If it sucks or is lacking in any important way the player may not be capable of bonding with the instrument. Translation - they won't buy it.......

We frequently see the guitars that individual builders have built and they are often fraught with issues beyond set-up but the set-ups often suck too. It's also not uncommon for us to do set-ups on brand new individual builder instruments that are for sale or even sold. Won't name names but we have set-up guitars for some folks who command some very high prices for their instruments. This may even include setting the necks, gluing bridges, fret work including fretting the instrument, and the final set-up with bone nuts and saddles. Some of these builders wanted world-class set-ups and to their credit they either knew that they were lacking in this area or didn't have the time because of a day job to do it themselves. I won't get into the ramifications of claiming to have built the instrument when the final assembly or set-up is farmed out to "ghost Luthiers...." and you might even be surprised at my take on it since ultimately I will also be a defender of value for the client. If the client benefits (the end customer of the instrument) so what.... it's not my place to judge.

By the way this year we will be offering a one day course in "Set-Up For Builders" which is how I started with this madness and I for one would highly recommend that any builder consider this all important topic, the final set-up, and also consider investing in yourselves to learn to do things very, very well so as to never detract from your otherwise excellent instruments.

It's also always baffled me that more time was never spent on forums addressing proper set-ups. There are industry specs that are pretty widely used, time tested orders for what to do first, second, etc. and well used methods for getting that dang near perfect if not perfect set-up for a specific player, string gauge, music type, etc. It all plays into how the instrument should be set-up.

Something that I frequently see on individual built guitars as well as f*ctory guitars is that not only are the set-ups often pretty bad.... Mr. and Mrs. end user for the instrument struggle with it for often years not understanding that because it is new does not mean that it was ever set-up properly.....

I had better get in an emoticon or two here so it does not sound like a rant on my part....

But my hat is off to you Danny bro for asking, many would not and again this topic is rarely broached on builder forums and really needs to be an important consideration unto itself.

Some food for thought though since I always want some value in my own posts is provided that the neck set is workable, the saddle and bridge are in the correct location...., the fret plane has been properly leveled and the frets crowned and polished - start with the nut slots. You guys and even f*ctories always leave them WAY too high.... Address the nut slots, eliminate that variable and then the rest becomes much more manageable.

There is a system to setting up any guitar and the system approach starting with a careful examination of the instrument, making a mental plan, and then using a further systematic approach will get you where you want to go.

Friday I completed a very difficult fret dress on a Gibson 175 CC where the player is a superb player but likes action of 2/64ths" and 3/64th".... And yes you are reading this correctly - uber low action.... Since this player can indeed play this thing with this low action without buzzing it was a challenge at least for me and we pulled it off too. My point here though is before we ever even addressed the final set-up the fret plane needed to be perfect especially in this case with this very low action.

After I was done with the guitar I played it for an hour and love the thing and now want one too. See what a great set-up can do to help sell your guitars?

It's also been said that one needs to make about 100 nuts before they will be capable of making a really decent nut. I used to think this was crap too..... wrong again Hesh.... I'm pretty good at being wrong.....

Anyway start with nut slots provided that everything else is within spec and capable of being set-up.

Adjust the relief. Whether a brand-new instrument or one coming off the street for a setup, dial-in the relief first. If the frets need dressing, that comes next. Then the nut, then the saddle. Always.

On a brand new build, I get all of the above close, but not too close, play the guitar for 30 minutes or so to break it in a bit and to find any hidden issues(rattles, strange harmonics, etc...), then place the guitar on a stand and forget it exists for the next week, only picking it up once a day to check and adjust the tuning. After a week, if the tuning has remained stable(no longer goes slightly flat from one day to the next), then she's ready for the final setup. If the tuning still goes slightly flat, leave it until it remains stable. I'm assuming that your shop's temperature and humidity is also stable; if not, ignore the above(and build at your own risk).

Thanks Josh. Makes good scene to sting it up for a couple of days prior to set up. A couple of questions. After having it sit for a couple of days you check the truss rod. Do you always add relief?

You get the nut height dialled in and then the saddle height. If you lower the saddle, won't that lower the string height a bit at the nut?

Thanks Hesh! I'm at the "more I learn less I know stage" and I can appreciate what it would take to pull off that low set up. Nice work. But again. If you have the nut dialled in, don't you risk the string height at the nut being too low when you start making other changes? Particularly, less relief and lowering the saddle.

Glad you chimed in Mario. Something I never thought of and wouldn't have had the patiance to do would be to leave the guitar for that long before trying to make it playable. That makes a lot of sense and I'm sure will in the end be a big time saver in getting it right.

You say, "dial in the relief first" Wouldn't you want no relief to dress/flatten the frets?

In addressing your questions to me Danny:

Nope because nut slots are one of the few set-up activities that can be done in isolation. Don't get me wrong I am assuming that the neck is OK, truss rod tweaked as need be to get a good starting shape for the neck (relief, no back bow, not too much relief, etc). Nut slots typically are evaluated for height a couple of ways but the most common is to fret between the second and third fret, work the string in at the slot to be sure it is not hung up in the slot, and observe the spacing of the bottom of the string over the first fret while holding the string fretted between the 2nd and 3rd fret.

There is some license here too in so much as some people cut nut slots lower than others and most of you cut them way too high. Even Martin in their training for techs looks for .007" between the high e and first fret when fretted between the 2nd and 3rd. This is WAY to high..... and will make the instrument more difficult to play in the first position. It's not uncommon for us to cut the high e to .001" or even less. At that point it becomes an exercise in looking for any light what so ever between the string and the fret crown and of course still being able to hear that "tink" when also fretting between the nut and the first. Nut slot height gets progressively higher with the increase in subsequent string gauges as you do the other strings.

There is no set spec for this though that is generally accepted. It becomes more of a individual style thing as to how deep some Luthiers cut nut slots. The player also has some bearing here too as is always the case in any good set-up.

For me once the slots are cut they are done..... Relief, saddle height, etc will not change how we cut the nut slots provided that our starting point with the neck shape was decent.

Lots of folks including people who work in the trade doing repairs all day long do thing differently but what I was always looking for was a systematic approach that would let me know where to start. And this is indeed what I was taught too and it works very well for me and thousands of happy camper clients.

By the time that we see your (meaning instruments built by semipro, pro builders) guitars they are usually pretty stable except for the OM built with green wood that sold for several thousands and was pitched several years later again because of green wood and lack of RH control during the building process....

My own guitars would not change very much in the 2 - 4 weeks after being strung up except for one that sounded absolutely terrible when I first put strings on it. Checked the saddle position, tuning, etc. and in 30 minutes time it dramatically improved. Go figure but beyond this one I have not observed major changes in just-strung-up instruments but will agree to seeing some minor changes in the first 4 week or so.

Don't over complicate things, make them sound too difficult and don't turn it into rocket science. My best advice.

I have been repairing guitars for a long time now (20+ years) but have not done nearly as many as guys like Hesh. For the first 10 years it was mainly friends or friends of friends. I didn't even start advertising or even have a business card until last year so I can't speak of the volume of setups I have done but I do try to do a quality job and from the responses I have gotten I guess I do a pretty good one.

I pretty much follow what Josh H said in his post, I was never taught how to do it but have just figured it out on my own. When I finally started charging people for it I figured I better know the correct way and then I found out I was already doing it right.

The only thing I could add is about setting the nut depth. I use to use a feeler gauge to measure the gap but learned early on that it was too difficult to actually see the gap between the string and the first fret. Then I decided I could eyeball it using a light to see the gap, that along with plucking the string to make sure it was still clear of the fret. A few years ago I saw on a web page (forget who's now) that by using a thin piece of metal like an old feeler gage with the rounded end ground off, you could lay the gage in the nut slot between the nut, 1st and 2nd fret and just pull the gage from the nut slot. You can hear the little click as the gage slips out of the nut and onto the first fret. This makes it really easy to tell where the nut slot is. I now use my trusty Stew Mac String Action Gage which is one of the most used tools I have ever bought.

I am not sure it was on this forum or another but I just read someone explain the same process so I guess it is used by a few guys out there. But that is how I have been doing it for a few years now.

Cheers,
Bob

Hi Danny,

I always setup my necks will a little relief. Once the guitar has sat for a few days and I check it and will either add or remove relief to get it exactly where I want it (again that being based on the type of setup I am going for).

The depth of the nut slots is based solely on string clearance over the first fret when fretting the note on the third fret. It is not dependant on the height of the saddle. I cut the nut slots with all the strings under full tension. I will vary the depth of the slots depending on the string guage and the primary tuning that the guitar will be used for. I’ve found SMs nut slotting gauge (referenced in post above) to be a real help. The gauge lets me easily pinpoint very precise depths for the slots. I've recorded the numbers that work for different setups so I can easily duplicate them on future instruments.

The depth of the nut slots and the amount of relief in the neck will have an effect on the overall string height, but I don’t use that as a primary means of adjusting string height. I nail down that part of the setup first to remove those variables and then can concentrate on setting the string height with the saddle alone. I may tweak the truss rod a bit as I continue with the setup but once the nut slots are set I never touch them.

Josh

_________________
Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

For a new guitar that has been leveled and fretted I support the headstock and add 5-6 lbs of weight to each shoulder to simulate string tension and flatten the neck with he truss rod. Level frets and confirm a little drop off on the extension.

Then slot the nut and fit the saddle leaving both high but making sure the radius on the saddle gives the relative heights I want at 12.

String up, stick on the Tone-Rite ( Does it help? A definite maybe!) and let sit until the tuning remains stable. Usually 4-5 days.

Set the relief, slot the nut pretty close using first fret clearance, set the saddle for appropriate action at 12 and crown for correct intonation. ( The crowning process usually brings the action down a very small amount.) All the tuning and re-tuning during intonation will give the strings a chance to settle into the nut slots and after that the final nut height can be dialed in. It seems that there can be a little settling in a freshly slotted bone nut so I usually keep the slots a couple of thou high until the strings have had a chance to do that.

Let it sit around a while longer, play it a lot, and make any final adjustments as needed. Sometimes a guitar that looked perfect at 10PM does not look that way at 10AM.

Warn the client that "Things they will be a changin'" and that a tweaking will probably be needed in 3-6 months. If it's hanging in a store keep an eye on it. That's a great way to follow how your guitars settle in assuming they don't sell right away!

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

If you can, try doing some electric guitar setups, preferably something with a tunomatic bridge.
This way you can experiment with relief and saddle height in real time and without having to pull strings off and cutting down saddle blanks.
Try doing a setup with a deliberately high relief, set it up the best you can without touching the rod and see how it comes out if you set it to standard string heights. Then adjust relief and see the difference. play around.
What you will find is if you do nut/ relief first then saddle height then intonation, you can do each step once, get it right and not have to redo it after the next stage. Don't be discouraged if setting the relief to an appropriate figure gives you buzzes, it just means that the next step of setting the saddle height is due.
Don't be tempted to "just tweak the truss rod" at the end, rather than fix the saddle.

A trick I learned from a pro: get a foot of velcro strip, maybe an inch wide - both sides of it. Cut it into 3 4" pieces. When it comes time to get the saddle out for work, split the velcro and put it over the strings that are sandwiched firmly between the two pieces, one of the pieces right at the saddle, one about the third fret, and one in the middle. Now put a capo on the first fret. Loosen the strings, pull the bridge pins, and lay all 6 strings back along the neck. When you are finished working on the saddle, swing the group of strings back, stick them in the bridge holes and then the pins. Takes longer to describe than to do.

Some very good advice here already, and a very cool tip - thanks Ed!

That's funny because it's true. I'm lucky to have a day job that affords me the time to mess with this stuff. Although some of the above steps are a little different for me the finished geometry is looking not too bad. I'm taking the time to keep the neck flat, pre truss rod, post truss rod, carbon fibre and FB. I think not getting to the final set up without a settle in period is something that I've always lacked. Who can wait for cryin' out loud. The novelty has worn off a little and I can probably find the patience.

Thanks for taking the time my friend. Lots of other food for thought.

Best of the Season,
Danny

Thanks Bob! There was a post here not long ago about using a straight edge of some sort and listening for the little "tink" after the edge leaves the nut. I'm looking to giving that a try. Height at nut makes a guitar so much more fun to play........ or not. So, now you're using the string height dial gauge? as in this http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... Gauge.html ? I have one and I use it. The problem is that I think the measurements change when other changes are made. I like the idea of eliminating the nut as a potential problem right off the bat.

All The Best,
Danny

Thanks Terence! I've heard you talk about putting a little weight on them. I think I might give it a try. I seem to more often than not end up with more relief than I would like when I first string them up. And I more often than not like to put mediums on it the guitar is built for them which only adds to it.

Cheers,
Danny

Just like tool sharpening Michael. Ha Ha Just kidding my friend. It would seem so simple but then one day you pick up what you thought was a well set up guitar and it buzzes at the 10th fret. I guess I could maybe use plastic instead of wood.

I wish you lived a little closer so you could show me how to touch up a hand saw. Only tried it once and it wasn't pretty.

All the Best,
Danny