Official Luthiers Forum!

Sure John CITES and Lacey are restrictive and certainly do complicate the lives of those of us who have requirements for some of the listed materials and it's also pretty clear to me that Lutherie in general "may" have been caught in a net... so-to-speak where the real targets of over harvesting are or should be others and other industries. It's unfortunate, complicated, pricy, and a nightmare to navigate.

On the other hand I tend to take a view inspired by native Americans in that I "cherish" many of these exotic and rare woods and feel very fortunate to have them available even if it means jumping through hoops, export/import restrictions, and more. Many of the Luthiers whom I know personally feel similar and share my view that our craft/trade greatly benefits from the bounty of our earth and as such have great respect for these wonderful woods. I'm sure you do too my friend and I am by no means arguing with you but instead simply suggesting a different point of view.

CITES and Lacey were a reality from the very first day that I ever had the opportunity to handle, tap, work, craft, smell say BRW. Regardless this is the business that I decided to be in and as such the realities of our day, fair or not, are something that I have to deal with. The same in my view holds true for Gibson, Martin, Taylor and everyone else. This is the business that they decided to be in and that to me means that in this decision, just like any other business decision, one has to simply roll with the punches and do the very best that we may anyway. Besides from the very first day that I was interested in Lutherie many of the ones here before either of us knew this was coming and had already squirreled away what they could for such eventualities.

Interestingly enough many of the Luthiers that I know also consider themselves to be environmentalists at the very least to the degree of having great reverence and respect for these very fine and now rare materials that we covet and at times seek out. It's the hand that feeds us so-to-speak, the earth and at the risk of sounding like a space cadet... I'm on board with this respect and point of view too. But that's another discussion, not something that I believe I can add any actual value to for anyone with my humble opinion and not something that from experience I personally wish to engage in.

I've read the perspectives here, know the Gibson story and to each their own. But for me I have far too much respect for some of these endangered woods that make wonderful guitars to not understand in advance that something had to change or some day our choices would be limited even further.

Sorry to Mike, did not mean to high-jack his thread and get into treaties and regulation. Back to dimples and freeing up the top...

Just to be clear:

Definitely the neck blocks that are the problem. The guys I was talking with didn't know of any other maker who undercut the bottom of the neck block. It just seemed like a really dumb move, especially when you consider that some makers extend their C shaped neck blocks as far as the first back brace in the name of stability.

Regarding the tail block, at least one world renowned text(!) advocates tapering the tail block to the width of the linings. The reason: no more than not having an unnecessary discontinuity in the width of the glue line around the linings. Does it avoid dimples in the back over the tail block? I don't know. I've never had dimples in the back, but I've never done it any other way. Just tapering the tailblock to the lining width at the top, of itself, isn't enough to prevent top dimples. There's a variety of other measures you can take to avoid those, though. Just make the linings "look" continuous across the block.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

I seriously doubt they would make such a change for purely cosmetic reasons. With respect to installation of the neck and end blocks, that entire operation is accomplished using fixtures and takes less than 5 minutes for an experienced worker to complete. My personal suspicion as to any increase in failures using this design is that all of Martin's bolt-on mortise and tenon neck guitars are from the lower end of their product line. As a result they make use of lower grade wood that could be somewhat more prone to failure, but if it proves to be a truly inferior practice they would be quick to modify their process. This is the same company that fought a battle in court in order to maintain their practice of requiring cases for all of their guitars. I personally witnessed the destruction of complete and nearly complete instruments due to flaws that would qualify them as factory seconds... and after you've seen D-45s cut up on a band saw and broken apart to prevent re-assembly, it becomes much harder to believe they would bother shipping anything deemed inferior.

Hi Trevor! Your comment got me thinking about a conversation that I had this morning with a relatively new builder who's first and only guitar is so very well built and finished that I would love to have it! And the very last thing that I need is yet another guitar to be tripping over.

When I brought up the idea of tapering the tail block to either free up the top or avoid the dreaded dimple he suggested creating a ledge in the tail block so that the linings and block are continuous as you mentioned. Beyond the ledge or more specifically below the ledge the tail block then tapers away from the top and/or back if you want to do this to the back as well. Because it's not a gradual taper and a ledge instead the possibility of a buzz where the ledge begins to contact the top is not present. I like this idea and it also provides for the thickness that we deem optimal in a tail block for structural integrity and perhaps pick-up installation with some meat to secure the input jack to while at the same time makes the linings look continuous to the lower bout of the top and/or back. In other words it's a slightly stepped tail block.

I'd be interested to hear your and anyone else's take on this idea. I also think that for a new builder it's some pretty good thinking and not just a cookie cutter approach to assembling a model airplane kit! I'll be happy to name this new builder after I see how his idea is received...

Regarding the glued mortice and tenon it's been glue failures that I've seen too, many, many of them. It's pop the wooden plate hiding the single bolt, crank (with care....) the bolt tight again, clean off the double stick tape from the neck block and underside of the plate, and position and reinstall the plate with a stick and a good viewing angle. Not difficult to deal with but I also have to wonder if this glued mortice and tenon was a pretty poor idea to begin with. SInce there is no mechanical join as with a dovetail the joint relies first on the glue when the joint is in sheer the entire time and then, when the glue fails, and it will and does.... the bolt is the only thing holding the neck on.... Don't they call the single bolt on the top of the main shaft of helicopters a "Jesus bolt" in so much as if it comes off someone is in for a big and ugly surprise?

Since we are talking about the 15 series with this glued mortice and tenon we have noticed top cracks too that are pretty common and don't respond well to rehumidification. By not responding well what I mean is when we bag-em and tag-em (put them in a Hefty bag... for a couple of days with a wet sponge) the cracks may not close... This is common on cracks that have been open for a long time and didn't just happen.

Anyway since we talk about this stuff non-stop unless a pretty girl passes by... we have a theory about why this may be happening and it may correspond with the idea of lesser materials utilized on the lower end models.

When one is in the business of manufacturing tens of thousands of guitars annually one also has to be in the purchasing wood business AND forecasting the annual sales of various models some years from now. The wood has to season or it's a warranty claim waiting to happen.

Recently in our history we were in the great recession where many musical instrument manufacturers and music store went teats up.... Disposable income was not what it had once been and people cut back on nonessential big ticket purchases. In a down economy that lingers over perhaps four years... how does a purchasing agent for a guitar manufacturer forecast and buy appropriate quantities of wood for use 3 - 5 years down the road. In hard times when a company is struggling to survive using your working capital for "futures" with out an immediate and survival related benefit may have been hard to do. I say "may" because I clearly am not a fly on the wall of the purchasing department at Martin, Fender, etc.

Taking it a step further if the needed production levels of wood for future use was not squirreled away might some guitars these days be built out of green wood? If so what we would see is more cracks than usual, more in certain models, and cracks that won't close with humidification alone. And this is exactly what we are seeing.

I just got a Matin DC Aura in the shop for a crack in the top. I noticed the neck had a gap at the heel big enough to put 2 business cards in. I popped off the wood covering the screw and was suprised to see a phillips head. I replaced it with one I could tighten with an allen wrench. I seems to me that Martin needs to use more glue if they are not depending on the bolt. I also wonder if the wood in the block is compressing or shrinking over time. This doesn't look like a low end instrument other then the neck joint. Any toughts?

" I also wonder if the wood in the block is compressing or shrinking over time."

As a newbie, this was what I was wondering too. Anyone have another explanation for the dimple?

Also, if the block is not to be attached, are they overlarge? Why have all that wood hanging around? I am having a tough time visualizing . A drawing would help.

Are they tapering both sides of the neck block? IOW do they taper on the top side under the fretboard AND where the block meets the back? I've noticed that as I keep building lighter and lighter I am getting better sounding guitars but sometimes after a year or so I see the telegraphing braces and blocks. As such I thought about tapering the end block. For some reason I don't see the telegraphing on the back side of the head block even with the traditional Spanish foot. It's always the tail block where it meets the top. I guess the backs being hardwood are just stronger.

Martin is no longer using the bolt on neck and has now changed to a simple dovetail joint.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I was at Martin today to take the tour and saw a ton of necks and bodies that had the simple dovetail. Some guitars seemed high end too.

What do you mean "simple" dovetail. As opposed to complicated?

It was narrow and looks like a mortise/tenon joint, but cut with a dovetail bit. Here's a picture of a neck with one that I took while taking the tour at Martin yesterday.

If the dovetail mate is tight then I would imagine the bolts are secondary. It does look like an improved joint over the previous Martin M&T to me.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Refer to my original post. "... The view was that this was the final sign that Martin had forgotten how to design guitars..."

I was wrong. Undercutting the bottom of the neck block wasn't the final sign. Unfortunately, I suspect this isn't, either.

_________________
Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au