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Hello,

I read on here that some people have their customers sign a contract prior to starting a commission job. I was wondering if anyone here would feel comfortable enough to post their contracts. I would like to use a contract, but I am not even sure where to start in writing such a thing. If you don't feel comfortable posting it on the web, please feel free to PM this to me. If you don't use a contract please inform me of some of the things you do to protect yourself from the customer. Thank you

Rob

Well, I'd start by not working with people you feel you need to protect yourself from, then move on to not doing anything that a customer would be unhappy about, followed by honourably settling any disputes that may arise amicably with the weight of responsibility resting on your shoulders.

Thanks for the tips, but I am more of the protect myself from everyone type. I even have a agreed upon procedure if my live in girlfriend and I break up. I believe that you should protect yourself from everyone including yourself. This way regardless of the situation everyone is happy because all of the details good or bad have been agreed upon prior to anything happening.

I have a contract that I use. Here is a copy of it in pdf. It would be accompanied by a complete list of specs with a price and a tentative build schedule. If you are in this as a business, then you must treat it as a business first and foremost. Contracts protect both parties involved should things go a wrong way. This gives you assurance that you will get paid in the end and let's the customer know exactly what to expect from the instrument and you. After all you cannot guarantee that the person will actually "bond" with the instrument.

I also point out that the process of actually writing the specs is where the real work is between you and your client, the contract is just a formality. When working out the specs is when you need to be clear and concise on things you do not feel will work out....Like the guy who really loves the look of flamed maple, but wants it to sound like mahogany......Start with a list of what they want in the instrument and work from there. Don't flood them with choices, two or three choices for any single thing is plenty, any more and they will get confused. If at any point in this part of the process you start to feel friction or difficulties, perhaps you should politely defer.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

A contract gives you a bit of reassurance. Helps you sleep easier at night. They certainly don't protect you with absolute certainty which is why Lawyers make a lot of money over disputed contracts, the contracts having been first drawn up by . . . Lawyers.
Call me very old fashioned but I don't use them. Lawyers or contracts.

I never used contracts, but I would give clients a written estimate stating that the final tally may vary by 10% either way, and I would ask for 25% percent down in cash. The client could make payments as the project progressed, or pay in full before receiving the instrument. I never gave firm due dates - I was a repair guy first, and builder second.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Here's a bit of a different point of view...

When I started building I had NO intention of ever selling my guitars. I gave some away to close friends including one of the most well liked, early members of the OLF my dear friend Serge.

As more and more of my guitars started hanging around my home and folks saw them they wanted them. So I began selling them and instead of selling "futures" or something yet to be built the prospective buyer could spend time with the thing and determine how much they wanted it for themselves. Next when I hung out a repair shingle and had repair clients in my shop one after another of my guitars found new homes. I again never did commissions, never advertised, did shows, etc. I let my completed guitars sing for themselves.

Still no commissions for me and I seriously doubt that I will EVER agree to build on a commission basis. My experiences with many, many pro Luthiers including some of the biggest names in the biz tells me that no one is immune from disputes over expectations and realities. In addition when I was a newer builder there were some prospective clients who for lack of a better word tended to "prey" on newer builders asking for highly personalized instruments perhaps even knowing in advance that once that level of personalization becomes cast in HHG... the builder is far more likely to cave on all manner of things including price, etc. because the instrument cannot be sold to anyone else now.... Not to mention requests for left-handed-nine-string-guitars with someone's name on the fret board.... (true story).

There is also the issue of the economy and how long it takes you to produce a commission. We have heard on this very forum before of customers attempting to cancel commission contracts because of unfortunate life events. If you take long enough and someone has a decline in income, health, etc. all bets are off.

So my suggestion is to consider not doing commissions and instead do your very own thing and I will guarantee you that if you build a great guitar and provide real value they will flock to your door. It's just way easier for all concerned to be talking about something that is already a tangible that can be tried out, played and even the psychological bonding process is advanced by not dreaming of futures but holding the real deal in your lap.

For many of my customers there was a significant other too who had major say in terms of the family finances. Again being able to actually see a completed instrument, it's beauty (or not...), and hear it helps gain buy-in from potential nay sayers.

If you are still hell-bent on doing commissions and like to live dangerously.... Howard Klepper who is one of the finest builders that I know and one hell of a good man too once offered to let OLFers see his commission contract and he might be helpful if you contacted him and asked respectfully. Howard is also an attorney and a very experienced builder on the bleeding edge of Lutherie. His legal chops and years of experience dealing with commission clients makes him in my view uniquely suited to knowing what a proper commission contract should encompass.

If you do contact Howard please do not refer to "kerfed linings" as "kerfings" or your current guitar project as a "build" he will likely decide that you are not worthy of further conversation....

Speaking in general here and not to anyone specifically I understand that to newer builders getting a commission is an event and possibly exciting. Also know the reality that commissions do go south fairly commonly and I can't tell you how many individual-built guitars we see in for repairs, often repairs that never needed to happen... where the current steward wants to sell the thing and is unhappy with it....

My plan was to take a long-view, not jump in and ease my way as I gained more knowledge into the commercial side of Lutherie. I'm happy with how it worked out for me all respects. If you KNOW that you LOVE Lutherie and are likely to do what I am doing and that is be a Luthier for the rest of your days consider also taking the long-view, not rushing, ease your way into the commercial side and I am sure that you will be able to look back one day and be thankful for making decent choices AND be on a healthier path, in my view, to securing your own little place on the Lutherie cloud.

I resonate with the bigger idea of what you're trying to say, but having a written contract is a very good idea. In the United States, we have the statute of frauds, which requires a written contract for all sales of goods with a value over $500. Internationally, a similar law governs.

I'd imagine the contact should have any material terms. There's no way it can cover every eventuality, but think about the essential terms and work down from there. Believe it or not, price can be left open if it's clear that you guys intended to have a contract.

The K is also typically a very helpful tool in solving any disputes and misunderstandings in a way everyone can be proud of.

I'm the veriest amateur builder (and of ukuleles, so the lowest of the low), with no plans to sell. This is partly because my day job as a law professor pays rather better, but mainly because building for money would take the fun away for me. I recently completed my first commission, which was terrifying enough even though I was giving it as a present, rather than taking money for it.

But I do have quite a lot of experience advising on contracts for multi-million dollar computer systems, which are remarkably similar. No-one knows at the outset quite how it's going to turn out, how well it will work, or whether the buyer will like it. For the amount of money at stake, a luthier needs a one- or two-page contract, rather than the hundreds of pages for a large computer system, but the things which need to be agreed are much the same:

1. Specification, as Brian Howard points out, is the heart of the deal. This can and should be multi-page. Its most important function is to ensure that builder and client are not thinking different things. Most computer deals which go wrong do so for this reason. If you are genuinely in agreement about what is to be done, there are few areas for later dispute.

2. Changes. These need to be documented, and in particular what they do to the price and delivery date (second main reason for dispute is not agreeing this_.

3. Delivery date. If no date is agreed, the law says you have agreed a "reasonable time". If I were a buyer I'd be looking for at least an estimate, plus some drop dead date after which I could cancel and get a refund. If you can't offer this, you probably can't write a contract which leaves the date entirely open, as the law will step in with reasonableness again.

4. What if the buyer doesn't like it? If it meets the spec then the law won't help the buyer who just takes against it, but some builders will give a partial refund and take the instrument back. Worth deciding what you would do.

5. What if the buyer claims it doesn't meet the spec? Is there some third party who could decide? Otherwise the courts beckon, and then you're both out of pocket whatever the decision.

6. What if it goes wrong later? Do you give a warranty, and if so for how long and what does it cover? Importantly, what's excluded and who decide (see 5 above) - eg heat damage is the buyer's fault, but who decides whether it's heat damage?

The other thing to consider, as other posters have said, is whether you trust each other. If you do, any problems can be talked through and sorted out. If not it doesn't matter what the contract says, things are unlikely to go happily.

And I guess I might show off my commission, as it was a touch unusual:

I love the mini uke! nice work

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Jose Oribe is a big name in classical guitars. He no longer takes orders, reservations, etc. He builds the guitars and if someone wants one that is ready, they buy it. So, if your client has no request for special design or inlay that is more expensive that you usually build or is so custom as to limit your ability to sell the guitar, build it and if he doesn't buy it, sell it to someone else.

I also like what Hesh wrote. That's what I do now as well. I like it a lot better. By and large I did OK with commissions but got stiffed on a couple that were delivered with the promise of full payment and had to be repossessed. Both were for professional musicians and I got wrapped up in the ego rush of seeing them on stage in big venues. Get the cash in hand before delivery and use some sort of contract.

Commissioning a guitar is a huge leap of faith for the buyer and now that I've had over 10 years experience, something I would probably never do myself no matter how famous the builder. Every instrument is going to be a little different and I have to say that customers always seem to build the guitar up in their minds during the time of construction to something that is probably unattainable. Even though they usually say they love the guitar at delivery you can frequently sense a little letdown when they first play it. In most cases this is followed by a true bonding with the instrument over time but not always.

I have come to believe that the best way to buy a guitar is to find the completed instrument that speaks to you. It might take a while but you will know when it happens. My advice to a new builder would be to sell completed instruments at a very reasonable price, preferably locally, so you can follow them over a few years and spot and fix the issues that will inevitably come up in early builds. It really takes 4 or 5 years to find out if you are putting out a product that will hold up in the real world. The ego rush of commissions is intoxicating though and most will probably not follow this advice. I didn't.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Well said Terry and your experiences seem to be on the more positive side of what I know of other's experiences.

I'll second Terry's idea to sell local and glean data as to how they hold up. This is part of why I gave some early instruments away - the only thing that I asked for in return was data from time to time. How's it doing, any issues, has the head plate tried to visit the tail block.... etc.

Interestingly they say that if you are considering going into business pick something with a HUGE market because at best you will only achieve a small part of the greater market. This rule seems to fit Lutherie so long as guitars remain cool. But there is also the issue of picking a market where it's well known that some of the participants are not all that flush.... an understatement... Working musicians are usually not all that flush but this is a huge part of the potential market for a builder.

You have to love Lutherie to attempt to make a living with this stuff because there are a LOT of factors working against us including the issue of disposable income, economic climates, levels of employment in your market, not to mention the competition.

Amen , hesh , an terry I agree. The problem with all of this is that musical instruments are highly subjective. Everyone has their own personal opinion.

Most professional builders work from some sort of order contract. It is a simple way of keeping everyone honest -- everything that the customer wants on the guitar is spelled out. They have the opportunity to review it before placing the order and make changes before signing and returning the document. And, in most cases, there is a window of opportunity between the time the order is placed and when it begins where addendums can be made. Email is no substitute for the formalization of what the guitar is going to be, physically. It can however help qualify any subsequent changes. All changes should be made in writing, either as a revision to the original order (with the requisite review by the customer) or by email.

Customers are fickle and can be tough to navigate (builders, too can have difficulty communicating), having a central document to go to and say, well this is what you ordered helps -- it won't resolve a customer with buyers remorse who doesn't care for features they ordered that are otherwise professionally executed, nor ones whose sonic expectations are different from what that builder offers.

Some builders offer to (and a few actually can) adjust the sonics of the guitar for the customer. I find that I am more successful in understanding what the client already plays and what void they want their order to fill by directing them to particular body sizes and materials than by changing how I voice an instrument. That's usually a better predictor of the instrument's voice. I don't promise to make anyone's guitars but my own -- if you want your guitar to sound like builder X, then I'm happy to send folks to them.

I don't use a formal contract per se, but give the customer what looks like an invoice that's marked as a proposal. That is the only repository of information that is exchanged between the customer and me. If I get an email or a phone call with a "hey, let's do this instead," that change immediately goes into the proposal, which is dated, saved, then sent to the customer. When the build starts, the proposal is closed and I get a written approval from the customer, though not a signature (yet). On completion, the proposal is changed to an invoice. This saves me from the last-minute dance. So far so good.

I might begin to lean more in the direction Terence takes.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I never had a formal contract either and in two cases I've had customers just completely disappear. I figured something very bad must have happened since in this particular case they actually bought all the wood and hardware which was not cheap. After two years of nothing I sold them. But anyway I think I like the 'if you build it they will come' philosophy a lot better anyway. I always keep shop guitars around so that if some one really likes it they can either ask me to build one just like it or take that one away. I've gotten reasonable well over the past many years to make for example a classical guitar sound like that one over there that I build. But it's not always the case so I would worry about taking the time to build some one a guitar that doesn't quite meet their expectation. Maybe that's not the case with some one with 200 guitars under their belt but it is with me. I still do a commission but it would be less formal and I would definitely put in any contract taht if the customer doesn't like it then they are off the hook. Don't want any unhappy customers out there.