Official Luthiers Forum!

OUCH! I'm 69 and just getting a good start! How little will I know by the time I can't hold a tool any more? It could be any day now!

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Common Waddy, don't go be babblin on about things you don't be wantin.

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Ain't that the truth!

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Thanks for the clarification.

_________________
Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

I am not luthier, (by all means, i am looking to build my own guitar at some point, and was pointed here by someone i got talking to, who used to be a luthier) but i can come from some other perspectives from what i do know.

people can claim to be self taught (ie figuring it all out on their own) but coming from where i have, there will always be some influence from someone somewhere, whether it is a youtube video, a book, someone giving you a tip, you only know that knowledge because you have gone to someone else.
some could argue that is being self taught, but where would anyone be if they did not have someone there for guidance?

_________________
Into the orchard i walk, Peering way past the gate
Wilted scenes for us who couldn't wait
Drained by the coldest caress, Stalking shadows ahead
Halo of death all i see is departure,
Mourners lament but its me who's the Martyr

After reading all the answers. I found out I really don/thave one . As I learned from sooo many different sources ,Woodworking school , teaching, books, other students, other loofiers, videos, dvd/s tapes lots of practice. Loofier schools etc etc.

Although the question itself is flawed in its generality, it could be said that all things are "self-taught".
We can witness demonstrations, conceptualise theoretical precedents, or be guided hand-over-hand to reach an outcome but the fact of the matter is that all learning is the result of what we choose to (or are able to) absorb/acquire based upon what we have previously learned and how it relates to our understanding at that time. Even invention and discovery are related to prior knowledge.
So in the purest sense I would argue that every skill we possess is "self-taught".
With regard to what I believe the vague question is actually asking, I would argue that if you saw a guitar and decided to have a crack at making one and did so, then you are a self taught crafts-person (depending on whether the outcome produced a playable instrument or a collection of woods and components that form an unplayable sculpture.) If it is the latter then you are a self-taught sculptor...to which the definition of "craftsman" opens another can of philosophical worms.

_________________
I've got a mind like a steel......whatsername!!?

only some kind of an a** hole would care about pedigree; if you can't tell a great guitar from some run of the mill instrument, then it is your problem; the history of it's construction ought to play zero part in the valuation of it.....

What if one were guided by another who fundamentally taught you the ropes via the internet? Robbie's vids are expert guidance IMHO.

_________________
I've got a mind like a steel......whatsername!!?

As far as woodworking, No, not really. Wood working runs in my family at an almost genetic level. Not everyone got the gene but those of us who did just took to it with little explanation. That said, I did apprentice with various teachers early in my career, none were the traditional apprenticeship arrangements and most of them were only offered to me because of my family name and who I was related too. Years ago, when there were more of us, the Howard name meant a fair bit as far as carpentry and cabinetry in this valley. I am the last of them......

Guitars, Yes. When I first tried this game in the late 80's there was nothing to learn from. The only guy in the area who new how to refret (and he was a bit of a hack) wouldn't show any one anything. Told me once he'd let me sweep up for $5 an hour.....that was to be me paying him! And he was serious....they were trade secrets. So I think I ruined 3 guitars including a decent Les Paul (all mine) Learning to re-fret. I knew how to play so figuring out how to set one up was fairly easy. When it came to building my first guitars, which were electric, I quickly discovered how much I not only didn't know but never even thought of. All the geometry, the relationship of parts to themselves as well as to the player. and on and on. My wood work was good,Ii already new how to apply finishes, but those guitars sucked! there I said it. None were ever truly playable. When we moved 11 years ago I cut them all up and we had a ceremonial cremation for them. I had swore some years earlier that I was never going to build another @#$% guitar as long as I lived........so here I am.

I think I need help..........

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Brian , if you need help. you could find a 12 step program for reforming luthiers.i.e. luthiers who need to or want to break the vicious cycle of addictive building, that seems to consume our lives. Being fully addicted, it has become a full time preoccupation, and I have just come to accept it.

Q - Can any craftsman claim to be self-taught?

AFH (answer for Hesh....) - dunno but as for me the answer is clearly no, I am not self-taught. More specifically I like to consider my own Lutherie journey as so far being three phases.

Phase one - bought a Stew-Mac Dreadn*ught kit and went at it. The instructions (both book form and VHS tape (had to go find a VHS player since the format was already dead when I bought the kit...)) <==== note nested loop too, er I am digressing.... Anyway for my kit building I had instruction be it written and video and as such in phase one I was not self-taught.

Phase two - had built 4 - 5 guitars and then one evening while looking at, er.... browsing the Internet I had the bright idea to Google "guitar building" and found what my friend the Padma would call Dis here forum. To my surprise it was a bunch of guys located all over the world who were seemingly all, with very few exceptions, good eggs and very happy to share what they knew. Folks such as Al C. who is still here, Mario X 3 with the "X 3" meaning he was VERY influential to me, Howard Klepper who does not seem to be here anymore, Colin, Dave W, and Russell R. from the UK and all great guys who were also very important to me, Sylvan, Barry Daniels (always has the straight scoop and someone who I always admired greatly), and many, many more who seemingly are no longer here either. Sorry if I left anyone out - there were back then too many guys to mention who all played a huge role in teaching this idiot how to build a stinkin guitar. It was different back then too in that attribution, or saying who taught us the stuff that we now spew at others was common place. I always tried to provide attribution too and realize that it's not always easy to remember since what they say about smoking that stuff as a youth makes one lose their memory but, er.... I forgot what I wanted to say...

Anyway... phase two for me I was NOT self taught either. Moreover many of the very fine folks who once graced this forum including David Collins who I met here but only lived a few miles from me and is now my business partner were VERY influential in my development as a Luthier (and a human being as well...).

Phase three - for me phase three was the doing, the hands on stuff, the building lots of guitars AND the repairing of thousands of guitars. In my "doing" phase forums played a far smaller and seemingly ever diminishing role in my development for a number of reasons. First, I had no time to waste in front of the IMac. Second once in the real-world with my hands in the bowels of a 1936 OOO-18, one owner.... I started to realize that in some cases forum info is very much worth what one pays for it.... It seems that there times when a forum, any forum, has more value to offer than others and this seems to correspond directly with who's participating. Some folks are comfortable sharing, some aren't, some have little to share or have it wrong.... and others have lots to share and can still have it wrong... And some actually can walk the walk and have done so and are worth listening to whenever they speak. Back in the days that I was here often we had lots of the later sort, Industry pros including Rick Turner who told it like it is but also knew the straight scoop and didn't spread Ed Romanish BS.

Even in phase three for me I still hear voices in my head (yeah time for my lithium I guess....) voices such as Dave Collins telling me true up the nut slot first before fitting the bone blank, voices such as Colin who has an appreciation for the idea that guitars are ultimately musical instruments with that purpose in mind and not intended to be dripping in bling but lacking tone and playability. Voices such as Paul Woolson who I think of when approaching a table saw remembering his comments about an unsound practice that was once shared here and could get one hurt. I hear Rick Turner talking about "GLO's" guitar like objects that may look like a guitar but are lacking in all manner of other areas.

My point is that in all three of my phases I was taught by and drew from perhaps hundreds of others and let's not forget the book that I never really liked by Cumpiano which continues to be very useful. It helped me greatly too.

These days my customers teach me things everyday. Although it's not always structural Lutherie stuff it's still important at least to me.

A couple of weeks ago I hung number 52 on the wall and someone decided to take it home a few days later. I still won't build a commission in that I still believe that I simply could not stand to spend 150 hours looking at someone else's idea of a guitar and prefer to build what I like and am interested in. So I build them on occasion when I have time and then hang them and then off they go. Some will, some won't, so what... next. Back in the day on this forum we agonized over things such as minimal glue lines but rarely discussed the user interface - playability or that all too subjective but hugely important goal - TONE...

We see thousands of guitars, mandos, banjos in our repair business too and these days this is where my primary interest is. David Collins taught me the repair business and continues to amaze me on a daily basis. Even one of you guys recently lived in our shop (secretly.... )and was one of our apprentices for a while and will be coming back for more soon. Wonder where he feels he learned more, forums or hands on?

So it should be said that I am still being taught, still learning, and always will be too. Even the day that I die I will likely be looking at the IV needle in my arm and wondering if it is bigger or smaller than the IV needles that I use to get glue under loose braces.

These guys who say give me a book and stay the hell out of my way are not only selling themselves short, in my view, they also will miss out on other ideas, the ideas of others that may be useful clubs to have in one's bag one day, or, should I say arsenal.... so it can be better understood by some....

So to me a person who is self-taught has to have lived in a bubble with no exposure to anyone else, no literature, no forums, no DVDs/VHS/YouTube, no Stew-Mac instruction manuals, no deli sandwiches stuffed in one's face while pretending to be an apprentice on weekends only.... No Mario, no Rick, no David, no Colin, no Barry, no Howard, no Ervin and his books, classes, etc., No Paul W., and none of the plethora of others who were once here who were peers of sorts and also capable of sharing what they learned and didn't hesitate to do so. You can't have even observed the offerings of others in my view as well since lurking at Healsberg taught me a great deal too.

With this said I wonder how anyone could claim to be self-taught but here's something else that comes to my mind as well - why would I even care? I mean unless I'm the sort who is so very competitive that it reaches a toxic level perhaps because of personal insecurities, perhaps not, why would Hesh even care how others learned what they know in the trade. For me all that matters is doing the very best work that I can - always!

Anyway I'm clearly not self-taught and very proud of it too since I consider being exposed to the ideas of others to be a privilege, an honor, a gift, and a leg up as well.

If you really, really, really have a huge love of Lutherie it seems to me that any opportunity to learn is invaluable and worrying about one's ability to never need to attribute anything to anyone else is very much.... off the mark.

PS: I'm still concerned about my own level of attribution here and would also like to thank Robbie, Andy, Serge, and about 1,123,456,345 others who have helped me in the past!

Hesh: Very nicely explained and I must say it expresses a lot of my feelings as well. Nice to see you back here and hope all is well with you and yours. Don't be such a stranger. Take care.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

I/m not as erudite as you hesh, but I read your shtick,and I agree 100% well said an bravo!

Hi Tom and thanks for that as well! I hope that all is well with ya my friend!

I'm debating starting another thread about a change, an event here in the states that is a bit of a god send for we working Luthiers. But the topic is sure, with this bunch and the few here who can't have a conversation without getting political and violating the rules, to go down hill in short order. But if you recall it's been brought up here before many times that one of the impediments to one hanging out a shingle and living the dream.... (being a Luthier full time and then some...) was affordable health insurance.

Frankly I'm not sure that with some here, never most...., that an adult conversation could be had. For me the affordable care act is the most important and welcome thing to be available to me personally in many years. The only sigifigant issue that I could never solve when I nixed the desk job in corporate America and hung out my Loofier shingle was my inability to purchase affordable, QUALITY.... health insurance and now I can AND just did too!!!

As a result our business now exists offering uber-high-quality repair and restoration to our market and lets us provide meaningful work for 5 people. Not having to play Russian roulette and going uninsured is huge for us personally and for me I'm so happy about it I'm about to pull the trigger on a Saw-Stop table saw....

But frankly after lurking here for several years now I suspect that bringing up a change in US law that greatly and directly benefits Loofiers (attribution to Duh Padma) would not stay civil for long so I'll start this thread elsewhere where the biz of Lutherie is more important than taking political pokes at others.

Anyway look for it on Frets if anyone is interested and sorry to the OP, really I am...., for getting off topic here.

Great too hearing from ya Tom my friend!

Thanks Ernie!! You know you and I were never here on the OLF in the same time frame but I have always read your posts since and as we all do learned some things about you (all great stuff) and I am sure that we would be, could be great friends! Thanks for that Ernie!

Shalom Ernie!!!

Thanks for the compliment hesh .I am grateful to be able to share what I know. FWIW I am also headed down a similiar path.I have been looking to relocate our disorganized shop, and am in the process of relocating the shop to a new location where we can serve the public.I am 100% with you on the instruments.Good for you to stick up for some individuality in gtr making.Wanting or desiring to be a clone gtr maker while admirable as a newbie gets vy old and stale as one gets older and feels the need or desire to be an artisan / craftsman or whatever, that is part of the essence of looking at other peoples gtr/string work and knowing they put a part of themselves into that work , instead of the plastic looking factory instruments .Which IMHO have no soul. On the health care ,I totally disagree with you, not because of I don/t feel folks should get healthcare. But because of my own personal experiences with the healthcare system in Canada when we lived there, and fast forward to america.Where even though we had to pay way more $$$$ we got much better care especially for major medical problems. My wife is in the medical field.While I feel and know that healthcare has to change in the usa. The path we are currently on will create a gigantic problem , which will implode down the road on it/s own volition. Perhaps then we will hopefully get some type of I repeat Positive change. I will now descend from my soapbox and finish the desert ironwood nut I was working on for my new OZ style pineapple tenor uke.Thanks.

Hi Hesh! Pardon my ignorance... do you mean Frank Ford's site frets.com?

touchez todd

Affordable...Care...Act.

One out of those three is all I got.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

No problem Ernie you and I can disagree but be warned - I still like you anyway! I'm also looking forward to seeing your OZ style pineapple tenor uke when you post pics. Regarding the Canadian system for health care we disagree but let's face it too what the US did is nothing like what the Canadians do and that is the problem that about 16% of us here in the states have with the ACA.... Insurance companies are evil..... By the way aren't you an Israeli? I think that I recall reading this some time back. I'm a dual national with Israeli being my other country and Israel has socialized medicine and it works for them, no?

Ringo!!! Hope all is well with you my friend and yes I mean Frank's excellent site FRETS.Net. I posted my thoughts there and already a couple of other Luthiers have indicated that this is huge for them too. Some are in disbelief as to pricing and were directed to get pricing on their own so that they can see what the buzz is all about.

Although again off topic here perhaps a short diversion from a poorly veiled attempt to gin up some new students for instruction without paying to be a sponsor may be welcome to some, perhaps not.

Regarding other people's money one does have to wonder how one who spent decades on the public payroll and then a defense contractor who's primary client is the US government, or, more specifically we "other people and our money" can be upset about where their own money goes. Go figure.... Regardless thank you for your service and truth be known I never minded paying for it either....

Anyway it's getting difficult for me to continue to be my very nice self since requests to avoid politics were ignored but I do continue to miss what this forum once was before it was dominated by a very few folks who can't play well with others.... So I'll take my leave once again until, of course I feel the urge to weigh-in once again and try to follow one of the two rules that I learned when I joined this forum years ago and it was my very first ever forum participation. Those two rules were/are 1) I do not have the right, regardless of provocation, to pee in the collective canteen. And 2) I/we are guests here of our host and as such it's classless to enjoy the hospitality of another and ignore their simple requests and rules such as not getting political.

And oh yeah, anyone care to shed some light on why it matters if one is self-taught or not or what ever? Is this a contest? Are some of you better than others? Just wondering....

Ah.... just like old times I post, Stock follows, and then along comes Filippo who never ceases to mind having his nose in Stock's crack..... Not that there is anything wrong with that mind you, to each their own....

Well Filippo I hope that you are doing well and maybe can see your own feet too one of these days.... While you guys have been incrementally ruining the happening that once was the the wonderful forum that the OLF was looks like you are a pro now by your own self-described info under your avatar. Congrats bro, had I known that it was as easy as building a few guitars and repairing some for your worship bros I would have taken that path too.

Anyway it's political to imply that money spent in say the search for WMD that never were there or that infamous war on drugs down south that wasted three trillion dollars to date of, you guessed it, other people's money and gave Stock someone to shoot at while drawing smiley faces on his targets was less wasteful than say food stamps that feed a kid so that he/she has a shot at learning something in school. What a narrow and misguided view. At the very least for you government haters who have yet to leave the teat of government one way or another... would it not be more balanced to imply that any government spending is government waste? I mean hell what's the difference, you believe that others benefit from your money and tax dollars but you don't bat an eye at the costs of killing others somewhere else or what you cost us all in service to federal agencies....

Anyway Filippo, bro, nice to see that you have come so very far with your development as a Loofier with only dis hear forum (attribution to Duh Padma), Stock and deli sandwiches, perhaps many, many deli sandwiches.... and an association with that other guy you mention from time to time who I can't remember his name at present.

I spent three decades working defense programs and have the certificates of appreciation from Lockheed/Martin, Raytheon, and a plethora of others to prove it but my take on waste in federal spending is vastly different than yours. One civilian program in particular, Medicare, and another for example, social security seem to be well liked and work pretty well. But that expensive war on drugs never got us anywhere now did it beyond some folks to send a fishing net or two to when one is feeling nostalgic for the killing fields south of the border.

Anyway nice to see that your nose is still firmly planted and Stock's crack and it makes me wonder if I still have that penchant for photoshopping images and concepts....

Since you always positioned yourself even when not asked as the smartest guy on the forum you remind me of a joke:

There is a plane flying over the mountains and on board is a priest, a hippy, the richest man in the world, and the smartest man in the world, kind of like you eh, Filippo?

All of a sudden the captain leaves the cabin in a panic and yells at the passengers that the plane is out of control and going to crash and that everyone has to leave now. He grabs a parachute from the wall and jumps out the door.

Now we have the priest, the hippy, the richest man in the world, and the smartest man in the world left but the problem is that there are four and there are only three remaining parachutes on the wall. The richest man in the world grabs a chute and proclaims that the world needs him and he jumps out only to be followed in short order by the smartest man in the world who proclaims that he is the smartest man in the world and as such the world will benefit from his survival and off he goes out the door too.

The priest looks at the hippy and says "my son you are young with your entire life yet to be lived, you take the one remaining chute, I will be fine."

The hippy looks at the priest and says "thanks father but we both will be fine, the smartest man in the world just jumped out the door with my backpack...."

Anyway I hope that you enjoyed the joke and no need to thank me, anytime, anytime.

I'm still having problems, admittedly, following my own rules so I'm out of here for now. But it is hoped that some of you guys stop killing this forum with your crap, self promotion, and attacks on anyone who may know more than you. Folks here are not as dumb as you seem to think and I still get emails nearly every week directing me to see what kind of BS you are up to now. It's a shame what you have done to this wonderful forum and my hope is that ultimately others see you for what you are. There are others who feel as I do, many others who owe a debt of gratitude to Lance and the others who taught us lots here on the OLF. Ultimately any forum is only as good as the community that makes up the forum. Folks who suppress the contributions of others, dominate the discussion, are easily threatened by a real pro who knows far more than you are precisely why the numbers here on this now over ten year old forum have suffered. But you knew all of this didn't you....

Shalom

PS: Filippo ever hear of ZIngermans deli? It's in A2 (Ann Arbor) where our shop is and was once rated the best deli in the US by the NYT. Want me to send you some sandwiches for Hanukah? Maybe I can find some pumpkin ale too for Stock?

Can you be self taught? No! But you can be self educated. I never had a shop class in my life. I went to Catholic school. I first started using hand tools as a kid out of curiosity. My dad wasn't handy at all so no skills were passed from father to son. The guitar repair and building thing came after teaching myself how to play guitar using a basic chord book then learning tunes by ear. Being that we were poor I learned to repair and customize the junker guitars that I picked up cheap at things like yard sales and flea markets. I installed my first Dimarzio humbucker by using a chisel and hammer. The first book on building guitars I ever read was Build Your Own Electric Guitar by Bill Foley. It was really a book on assembling a guitar from ready made parts. My first really good guitar was made using this book. from there I just mimicked what i seen on guitars. I made my first real electric using hand tools and and old jig saw. My first taste of acoustic building was after I found a copy of Cumpianos book in a little how to book store that i passed in center city as I worked as a bike messenger. I picked up a lot of books in that store that taught me various skills. Back then there was no internet.So no OLF to learn from like today. I have never had any hands on lessons from other builders. I never even met another builder to years later. I didn't know there were a lot of others like me. When people ask me how I learned these skills I always say from reading books and trial and error. I never claim that I did it all on my own. I give credit to those authors of those books. The internet today helps enhance that self education....Mike

_________________
Another day, another dollar.

Hesh .I went over to frets.now and gave you my 2 cents worth of opinion about healthcare, as honestly it/s such a loaded topic that would really sidetrack this thread.Man have I seen that happen before here on the OLF. No , I don/t want to piss anyone off either , so will shut up on healthcare opinions .Yes I am Israeli too hesh I have citizenships from 4 countries czechoslovakia, israel , canada, and usa. Both my children are in israel hesh , my son is serving in the IDF, and daughter is teaching english to russian immigrants in ashdod. She speaks russkie. My son told me , that he gets to chose from a pool of 6 plans, he made aliyah. My daughter is insured through our plan and the student organization she is with. I am not familiar with the israeli health care system , but I do know quite a bit abt the canadian one as my wifes family is on w. coast and mine is on the e. coast , plus we have friends still in canada. From my limited knowledge it seems to me that each country has it/s own different style of healthcare.One must actually live there in order to experience it, and know the ins and outs of their countries system. For sure I am no shmexpert. Hesh , If I can be of help let me know ,or PM me and I can give you our cell number. shalom.PS hesh, the oz style pineapple tenor is in the finishing stages in the bsmt. Here are the particulars. Back an sides tamarindo top WRC , neck silver maple headstock face overlay ipe or B. walnut rear overlay e. walnut fingerboard pernambuco with center sripes of persimmon and black locust , brass fret markers. Desert ironwood nut, bridge , pernambuco, with ebony saddle, grover 4n tuners, The top has falcate c braces made with laminated h. mahogany an carbon fiber weave. The bracing design taken from a luthier on the ANZLF. the back has 2 ladder braces of spruce and bottom live back bracing a la gore taken from the gore /gilet book/. The finish is antique rosewood stain with water base filler for tamarind and DIY shellac, followed by thinned tung oil and several coats of cabinet varnish. I wanted to give it an old time look circa 1920/s.I will post in abt 2-3 weeks when it cures

Thanks for the kudos todd for my son who is currently serving in the IDF. and Todd thank you for your service to the usa. It is much appreciated, especially since we are geting close to Nov 11. My service was in canada 6 th battalion canadian grenadier guards, now disbanded. Every one in my family has served in the army since my grandfathers service in the first world war .No I do not glorify war , or military service. Frankly, if not for the bravery of all those who fell we would not be free to be loofiers at all here in . N. america. Or shoot our mouths offon forums to express what we feel .To all the men /women of the forum who have served , my hats off to all of you, and to those that haven/t I am sure that most of them are eternally grateful Thank You.