Official Luthiers Forum!

Would someone, or several, or even many someones mind giving a tutorial on how to determine the quality on tonewoods?
For me and many like me, including those just starting out in careers in Lutherie, there's not enough money to buy wood in quantity. Most of what I've ever bought has been either from LMI or from Ebay until recently. So all that's available to me is pictures, and that's obviously not giving me a lot to work with.
I did buy a top from Lance here based only on a picture and his description - it just arrived tonight, and I'm gonna be real happy with it. I'm also looking at a b&s set from someone here and have pm'd him asking a couple of questions - I'll take his word for what he says as well. But what are the questions I want to ask to people I completely don't know from a forum I attend?
Obviously there are a huge number of woods to use for backs and sides, and a decent number of different tops as well.
What do you professionals do, or what did you do when you first started out? How did you start learning about what works and what doesn't? What to grab quickly and what to walk away from?
Thanks for your time and input in advance,
Bob

_________________
Bob
From the oldest town in Texas.

I'm not a pro luthier but I've been working with and selecting wood for 30 years. My rule is simple, if I can't handle it in person then I make sure I buy from someone who has a reputation I trust. Occasionally I'll take a chance on someone I don't know with the full realization that it's basically a roll of the dice.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

First, read this: http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Wood-Craftsmans-Guide-Technology/dp/1561583588

Bob I understand what you are saying because I'm in the same boat. I've always bought from reputable tonewood dealers or from folks in forum classifieds. When I have gone to the local exotic woods dealer I always find it difficult to tell if the wood is worth buying for using on a guitar. It also seems that their idea of quarter sawn is quite different than what we are looking for. This is a good question and I'll be watching to see what answers are given. Thanks.

_________________
Kyle

Here is my advice, for what it's worth. Please take my experience into account here, and feel free to use this information as you see fit. I have built quite a few dulcimers, but have yet to finish a guitar. This means as a guitar builder, I am a nearly complete newby, since I have learned there is a huge difference between a dulcimer and an acoustic guitar. So, when I decided to start building guitars, I had a basic understanding of wood, but mostly with walnut and poplar, and some cherry. With that background, I am all too familiar with the rule that says you get better as a builder with experience. So I decided to keep it easy for starting out with guitars, and used a simple rule: for a beginner builder such as myself, buy from a reputable vendor, don't spend too much, and trust what you get.

For my first two guitars, I bought spruce tops from LMI, and got the cheapest grade they had. I figured it would suit my purposes to a T, which it did, since I ended up having to order more wood and start over after messing up two rosettes. And, one piece had a flaw that made it unusable. I contacted them, and they replaced it, no problem.

I did the same with brace wood. Just called LMI, told them what I was building, and asked for enough for two guitars, plus a little extra for when I mess something up. That was also a good idea, since I did mess something up, and had to cut/scrape all the braces off the backs of both and start over.

The back and side wood, and neck wood, I bought at my local lumber yard. Just looked at what they had, picked some nice looking stuff, and had at it.

So here is my point. As a complete beginner with guitars, some of the best advice on building I got here on this forum from Todd, when he said your first one is more an exercise in woodworking than instrument making. That has proven %100 correct. (Thanks again, Todd.) It will be full of mistakes and do overs, so how much do you want to spend? For me, i'd say trust the good name vendors, and use what they send you. I figure their cheapest grade for various parts may not be up to the standards of the highest end builders on this forum, but for someone like me, it is a great way to get started, and I'll be more choosy as i gain experience.

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Quality is always based on cosmetics. A high grade top can be cosmetically fantastic and not be structurally what you are looking. Structurally, I desire light weight and strong with good cross-grain stiffness.

Tops
The first thing you want is fully quartersawn grain. The next thing you look for are flaws (knot shadows, bearclaw, etc...). Note that some people like bearclaw and consider it attractive. The grain lines should be even in color and preferably as numerous as possible. However, certain species tend to have wide grain and that is okay. Ultimately, the high grade tops are very even in color yielding a very homogenous look. There is also the issue of runout which can be very difficult to see until the top is joined and fine sanded.


Backs
You are looking for quartersawn grain. Ideally, the grain is mostly straight but it can wave left or right and that doesn't effect quality or value. Figure (spiderwebbing, quilt, flame, etc.) adds to the value. I see a lot of sets that are promoted as having special aesthetics but in reality, are just showing flatsawn grain. The special stuff will be fully quartersawn and also have really attractive grain pattersn. Unique grain color that is especially attractive also adds to the value. Knots and various defects negatively effect the value and quality of the set.

Take a look at my Tonewoods page. Nearly every one of these sets would be considered mastergrade material and represent the quality that you hope to find. None of these sets were cheap!!! Generally speaking, the mistake I see most folks on this forum making is not going for the straight grain quartersawn stuff and instead choosing visually complex flatsawn sets which are simply structurally inferior for use in building guitars. Bear in mind, aesthetics is not an objective field -- and so, what I consider attractive doesn't have to what you consider attractive. Nevertheless, the qualities I outline in this post are unanimously agreed upon by the professional lutherie community - that doesn't mean you have to agree but it is the "standard" that most of us go by.

http://fayguitars.com/guitars/tonewood.html

Thanks everyone. James, do you think that book could benefit a newbie like me? Reading the review on that page makes me think it's geared to more experienced people. I tend to think you recommended it because you think I can "handle it". It does look like a good one to have on hand.
Buying from someone respected in the field is great advice - as is working with what you get. That 2nd point is pretty deep. Even if it's not the best wood, it's the experience, which is always helpful.
And Simon, thanks for the characteristics you pointed out. I recently told a friend that my next one will probably be the straightest EIR I can find. I do love good figure in a back and side set, but don't yet have a good enough grasp on how to deal with waviness, rippling across the sides that can come with that type of figure.
Thanks all for your time on this.
Bob

_________________
Bob
From the oldest town in Texas.

Bob, here's a free read that'll give you a start:

"Wood for Guitars" published at the Seattle 2011 meeting of the Acoustical Society of America.

_________________
Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

Absolutely I think it could benefit a newbie and would consider it required reading for anyone who plans on making more than a handful of guitars. For sure you can buy only sets of standard woods from trusted vendors with straight, vertical grain and never have a problem, but if you are wanting to venture outside that comfort zone you'll want a good fundamental understanding of how wood behaves and potential problems to be on the lookout for. The first two chapters and the one on moisture relationships with wood go a long way towards that understanding IMO.

I'm with Steve and Simon on this one. I only use quarter sawn wood, or at least real close, and if I cannot handle it my self then I only go through reputable dealers. It's just not worth the risk. I never liked the idea that grading is done based on cosmetics but I guess it would be difficult to grade on deflection testing and stiffness. My guess is that if a reputable dealer had the most perfect piece of top wood that looked perfect but was floppy like wet cardboard they would discard it. I don't know?

Sorry, for some reason I thought I'd put some info in about my background. About 4 years ago, I built my first from a StewMac kit. My 2nd and 3rd were also from kits from other vendors. The one I'm finishing up now is somewhat of a "scratch" build. The back and sides were thinned by RC Tonewoods, and the top was a 2 piece Engelmann that I thicknessed with a plane, then borrowed Steve Kinnaird's thickness sander. The neck is a semi-carved neck from LMI, so I'm learning about how to profile a neck. I bent the sides for the first time on this one also, and it went pretty well.
I'm weaning away from a lot of the pre-shaped parts of the guitar.
And thanks for all the other answers as well. I will contact Steve Kinnaird sometime soon to see about visiting him and Ryan at their shop - they just had a new one built that looks huge. Not sure when they're moving to it though.

_________________
Bob
From the oldest town in Texas.