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He would be hearing the term " Bugger off " again

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You said yourself it's turning out to be a great guitar. That means it's worth a lot more than the materials cost.

Ignore all the drama, give him the materials cost (because he gave it to you), and keep the guitar.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Yeah, I agree with keeping it. That sounds dangerous for the guitar regardless of who takes ownership. Plus it smells like a cool inlay, or country song.

Ray

I would hand him my least favorite top, back and sides, plus a neck blank, and tell him to have a nice day.

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George :-)

Really understand that George, but what did the wood do wrong? Be nice to "divorce" yourself from the situation--easiest to repay the money if not too painful financially (not talking BRW are we?), finish building it and decide if you wish to sell or hang on. Personally, even if it turned out perfect I'd sell it and hope it found a good home. Wouldn't want the memory of a tainted build hanging around. Besides, then you know you could just build another one! Unless you like stories about each guitar like this

Doc

Yes we are talking about BRW. It would be very painful to repay.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

Hmm, that changes things. Hate to say it, but that was pretty stupid on both your parts to make a handshake agreement with no clear terms when that much money is involved.

I guess in that case, I'd say either split 50/50 (pay him back half the original wood budget), or keep $500 as a non-refundable deposit and pay the rest back to him. Otherwise it might come out unfair in your favor, since you do get to keep the wood either way, and I assume he didn't have any features that make the guitar unfit for resale (i.e. having his name inlaid in big letters somewhere), so it's not like you're completely out the money.

I can't see the wood. Don't leave me hanging.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

From the first post it seemed clear to me that the real issue here was no contract, but that's water under the bridge.

I was kidding in my post above. Frankly, I think the right thing to do is to finish the guitar and give Mr. X first crack at its purchase. That was the deal, so that's the way I would proceed. If he declined to buy the guitar I would offer to return him some portion of the materials costs if and when I found another buyer. The refund amount would depend on a set minimum for my labor and the actual sale price. If someone else has already recommended this, I agree with them. :-)

All the sad drama and messy relationship stuff aside, this is a pretty straightforward proposition.

And the lesson learned, people? Use contracts!

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George :-)

Thanks George, this is pretty much what I had decided to do this weekend. We'll see what happens. I suspect X decided he didn't want the guitar anymore a few years ago, but now he wants the money (and he suddenly wants it now), which is why he chose to contact me after a lengthy interval. I guess I'll find out pretty soon. I offered the guitar to him under the terms of the original deal.

As a newbie builder I thought that building for friends that I knew would be a safe way to go. It was, at first. I've since concluded that friends/strangers ... it doesn't matter. It pays to always be wary and protect yourself.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

What beautiful wood you have!

I guess the moral of the story here, and I might be a bit off, is dont bang your buddy's wife when you are broke and have a custom guitar on order?

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

You know, this is actually pretty interesting. I had a lot of fun conversations with my contracts professor this past spring about the whole process of commissioning a guitar because all these issues were coming up in the AGF's Custom Shop forum and it was a good way to think through things.

The law that governs contracts depends on whether the contract is for a sales of goods (anything that's moveable), or for a service and experience. I think you could make persuasive arguments that having a guitar made is both, and then the governing law depends on whichever (good or service) is predominant (that's called the "Bonebrake" or "Predominant Factor" test). And that's up to whoever makes the stronger argument.

So if you call this guitar predominantly a good, then the UCC will apply. The UCC actually allows contracts to be formed when the parties agree that the final price will be decided in the future as long as both are acting in good faith (I want you to make me a guitar, I want to make you a guitar, and we'll figure the final price out later). If the contract doesn't include a term for price, and the price becomes an issue, the court can actually set the price; and they'll set it at whatever's reasonable at the time of delivery. UCC 2 Gap Fillers

But the other thing I see is that if the contract is for goods with a value exceeding $500, the handshake isn't enough. That kind of contract has to be finalized in writing. UCC and the Statute of Frauds.

So if you were to actually have this thing out in small claims or whatever, it could be pretty interesting.

That's just my take. Take it with a grain of salt because I'm still in school.

Non-refundable deposits is another thing I'm interested in. I should see if I can hash that one out with him.

This story now has an ending.

Recap: After 2 years of not hearing from Mr. X, he asked me to pay back the cost of all materials for the custom guitar he no longer wanted.

I had a look at the state law here in Michigan and sent him a response using wording from Commercial Code 440 Section 2703.

"I will give you a month. If you don't express interest in purchasing the guitar by October 10, you will have then effectively defaulted on our agreement. At that point, I will then withhold delivery and recover damages for nonacceptance."

Today he told me he didn't want it, and to find a nice home for it.



Thanks, everyone, for stopping by, and for all of the great advice.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

So dude cops out, you keep the ax and um... what happened to Mrs. Moneybags?
Just askin.

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When she was part of the equation X pestered her with emails and phone calls. She wants nothing to do with it anymore.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

Thankfully it came to a nice resolution for you Martin. It was getting ugly there for a while.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

+1. I'm glad you're out of an awkward situation!

I'm sure this has made a lot of people think about how they might do business in the future.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Yeah! I'm glad to hear it worked out well!

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Good news Martin!

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Hmmmmmmm.

You dodged a bullet, Martin.

For a variety of reasons, I think you would have lost this one in Court. No need to beat you up on the details, but you got away with one here.

I've mentioned this before on the OLF: Get a written contract. If you don't have one, you don't get to make up the terms after the fact based on what you think the terms should have been (i.e., is the deposit non-refundable).

Glad to hear it worked out, though.