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I'd be interested to hear straight from the horses mouth that this will work on rosewood. I have always considered oil-based varnishes incompatible with oily woods as a first coat.

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

Okay, here's what Laurent had to say. He strongly recommends the Epifanes. Why?

"Quality of the varnish itself and the best transparency I've seen, 100% consistency from batch to batch, ease of use (self levels like no other varnish), has the right amount of amber tone, not too much, not too little. Other varnishes suffer from variations between batches, the most obvious was P&L #38, followed by Rockhard."

Another quote from our exchange:

"Again, flow out with the Epifanes is the best I've experienced, of any finish. It's hard to get a run, and it self levels like nobody's business."

He mixes the varnish with Epifanes accelerator, which contains more resin, resulting in what he would describe as a medium to short oil varnish and a final cured finish that he has found to be as hard as other (non-spar) varnishes. That addresses my concern about this varnish, as a spar varnish, being softer than other varnishes.

He has also used Epifanes, thinned a lot (to a "wiping varnish" consistency), as a sealer directly on bare rosewood and other oily woods with no curing problems, though he does recommend wiping the wood with naphtha before applying the varnish. He also suggests that multiple sealer coats may be necessary (with a naphtha wipe before each additional coat to remove oils that may have surfaced) before moving on to the less-thinned build coats.

Sounds like a strong case in favor of Epifanes to me!

I will make a second post with more about the ratio of varnish to accelerator to thinner that he uses and other details tomorrow. Now, a little guitar practice, then sleep...

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Good morning!

One more thing Laurent said about the virtues of Epifanes is that it "buffs the best of any varnish I know".

Though the focus of my questions up to this point has been the choice of varnish, not method of application, Laurent volunteered a lot of information about the latter, so I will share that with you here.

For spraying, he mixes Epifanes Clear Varnish, accelerator, and spray thinner (naphtha works as well) 1:1:2. Then he adds maybe 10% acetone (no more than 15%) and 1/2 the maximum recommendation for Japan Drier (the recommendation he is referring to is in the instructions on the container of the drier). For brushing, use Epifanes brushing thinner instead of their spray thinner, or turpentine, which evaporates more slowly; ratios remain the same.

(The accelerator and thinners referred to here are Epifanes products found here: https://epifanes.com/na/store/thinners-additives/.)

He says that the varnish is quite thick out of the can and the accelerator even thicker, which explains the amount of thinner used.

The slower evaporating thinner is used for brushing to facilitate flow out, therefore minimizing brush marks.

The acetone helps successive coats to "bite" into the preceding ones, thus getting rid of or at least minimizing witness lines. The drier, of course, speeds curing, and adds to the hardness of the finish, at least in the short term.

A couple of pointers, quoted from Laurent:
"It's better to lay more thin coats than fewer thick ones. It is safer in terms of runs, and the varnish cures faster and harder. You'll get a feel for it once you do it.
Yet another caveat: because of the natural amber tint, try to lay the varnish as evenly as you can and to sand evenly as well between coats. Otherwise you'll end up with darker/lighter areas, [which] is especially noticeable on spruce and maple, of course."

He waits at least 3 weeks before buffing, but says that a week may be sufficient.

For the sealer coat(s), take the Epifanes mix described above and mix it further 1:1 with Epifanes thinner (or turpentine or naphtha). As stated previously, it may require a few applications before oily woods are fully sealed.

Regarding sealing with the varnish, Laurent added, "The end result may not be different from sealing with shellac. It depends on the wood. It doesn't make a lot of difference with most rosewoods." (He is talking about the visual effect.)

Another quote, regarding adhesion:
"Adhesion with oil varnishes is always tough, either to the bare wood or to a shellac sealer. Inevitably some of the corners will present some adhesion issues (fretboard edges, nut slot etc.). Thin CA is your friend; just wick in a tiny drop with a micro pipette or tip and it is solved."

I think that's about it.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

My one experience with Epifanes was on this birch / spruce / pear mandola (yes, that is one big ol' knot in the back...). I applied the varnish directly to the bare wood with a good brush, mosly following the instructions on the can regarding thinning etc. I was after "soft glow" type look for this one, so as an experiment , after levelling the final coat of cured varnish, I wiped on some True Oil as a top coat. It came out about as I had hoped, not super shiny, but nice and organic... This instrument gets played a lot, and I get to see it regularly, but the finish seems to hold up just fine; that is, a few dings here and there of course, but I see no aheadsion problems anywhere, as Laurent mentions. Perhaps a bigger problem with rosewoods etc?

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Todd - I've enjoyed this thread and found it very informative. Thanks for starting it and sharing what you've learned.

Burton, please let me/us know how you get on with the EnduroVar.
I used it on my last (sprayed) and know what you mean about the sanding!

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I wrote that the reducer for Rockhard Varnish and the P&L reducer contain:
"either trimethyl-benzine or ethyl-benzine."

I meant to write ethylbenzene or tri-methyl-benzene. Different stuff. Makes me thing of the group the 'Mother Folkers': "the most carefully pronounced name in the business".

Thanks for sharing your experience, Arnt. Sweet mandola!

I look forward to hearing more from those of you who are trying the Murdoch's U500. There are certainly things about that varnish that are very appealing, particularly the botanical formulation (low toxicity, low environmental impact), and how it apparently works well right out of the can, no need to add acetone or drier. If it proves to perform as well as the Epifanes, and to be as consistent, it would definitely be a top contender.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd, I'm curious. Is it safe to assume whatever finish you choose will be applied to one of your very nice and very valuable guitars? Will you choose a finish based upon someone else's opinion, no matter how experienced they are? Or will you try a couple of candidates to see how they perform, real world, for yourself? Truly curious about your thought process as I've tried the U500 and will now get a quart of the Epifanes and see how they compare. Seems cheap and easy to run simple tests. Just wondering if you'll try your own real world tests before applying, or go with the experience of another Luthier? which cannot/should not, I understand, be discounted. Again just curious.

EDIT: Wondering what others' thought process is regarding same. It seems so easy to try different products and schedules on scraps to determine what will work best for your particular application. Is there ay reason not to?

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Thank You and Best To All

Laurent Brondel is a huge resource for all things varnish, and a true gentleman to boot. His advice has been invaluable in my attempts to get a decent brushed-on varnish. I should add that the P&L 38 is ready to brush from the can. Taking Laurent's advice, after the first coat I usually add a few percent acetone to help with witness lines. When it starts to get too thick, I thin it with turpentine, or more recently, with mineral spirits. According to its MSDS, mineral spirits are the main ingredient.

I haven't tried applying varnish directly onto bare wood. I always wipe on a sealer coat of de-waxed shellac. Are their good reasons to avoid this step?

For me, witness lines are the biggest problem. To combat them, I level perfectly after the penultimate coat and brush the final coat as best as I can. Then I level again, more gently, and try not to be too aggressive during the polishing phase. If the Murdoch's really eliminates witness lines, I'm sold! If everything goes well, I don't think any other finish looks as good as a beautiful oil varnish.

Good question, Larry. Not quite so easy to answer succinctly... For the guitar I'm getting close to finishing now (the one in the build thread on the AGF that I linked to earlier), I will likely choose one varnish, based on recommendations, and go for it. I value all the input everyone has offered here, and, importantly, I've gotten detailed and persuasive input from Laurent, with whom I have enough personal experience to know that I have great trust in his knowledge and experience. His strong recommendation gives me a lot of confidence that I would be happy with the Epifanes. The other important piece is that I have a lot of confidence in my ability to work with a material or method that's new to me, given that it's a material or method that has worked very well for people whose work I know and respect, and to make it work very well for me. Buying quarts of several different finishes (one quart of U500 is $50, no small matter in my mind just to run a test) to try out... in my mind, probably not time and money well spent when I can just get one varnish that I'm confident is an excellent choice and just go for it. Not to say that I might not try another some other time, but, if I'm really happy with the results I get from my first choice, I also might just stick with that and only get better at using it.

It's kind of my style to gather as much information as I can, make a choice, commit to it, and go for it. That said, I do, of course, try different things and adopt new methods sometimes, too...

With the repairs and things I've got going in the shop, not to mention other demands of kids and life, it will be a while yet before I'm actually ready to start putting varnish on this guitar, so I have more time to consider whether to choose the U500 rather than the Epifanes. This is why I'm encouraging others to please keep us posted on the performance of that varnish and the results you're getting with it, and will be most grateful for the continued input.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

In response to your question, Chris, quoting myself...

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my question in a such a thoughtful manner. I'm in a continual search for finish methods that make more sense to me than spraying Lacquer or brushing waterborne, or even high gloss finishes, which I'm a fan of neither. I like your thought about picking something that you know has worked for a trusted craftsman, committing to that method and simply getting better at it over time. If it ends up being satisfactory and meets all your requirements then continually searching can indeed be a futile waste of valuable time.

I'm OK trying different finishes because what happens to me and all my abandoned finishes is they always end up on something, a table, or a work bench, whatever, and never seem to go to waste even though they may not be the perfect finish for a guitar.

Again thanks for the thread and ideas about finishing alternatives and am curious as to how your trials come out with whatever product you end up using.

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Thank You and Best To All

And...



Note that Laurent said that, in his experience, it doesn't makes much difference on rosewood, in terms of the look, whether one seals with shellac or the thinned varnish.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Related to the varnish thread; I wonder what kind of brushes people might use & equally important how to keep them clean between each coat.
A long time ago I purchased a container that had some kind of very powerful solvent that you poured on to a soft lining in the container & hung the brushes in there & did not clean them at all between coats.
I have used taklon brushes for WB target lacquer with mixed results.
MM

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Mike McNerney

Here are a couple of guitars I have going in my shop, both finished with U500 gloss.

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Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies

Nice Aaron. Curious about your finish schedule. Sealer, pore filler, sanding, application method, brush or spray, buffing etc.

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Thank You and Best To All

Thanks for showing those pics, Aaron. Looking good. I've quoted myself above (with emphasis added) to call your attention to a question I had for you earlier that slipped through the cracks. Also, like Larry, I'd be grateful for info on your schedule/method. Thanks again -

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd, you CAN use the u500 on bare wood, I do quite often.. just depends on how porous the wood is. It works well over zpoxy or shellac if you want to pore fill with either of those. The botanical polymerized tung oil works well for a base to the U500 as well, and actually will fill pores with several applications. On oily woods, just wipe the surface with acetone first and it should pose no cure problems. I used it on cocobolo with no sealer and had excellent results. I never thin the U500, it is perfect straight from the can, but if you do thin it, it may be your preference, it will dry to a duller sheen, but will dry a bit faster. Seriously, the U500 is the BEST, period. Try it, you will never look for another oil finish.

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Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies

Thanks for that input, Aaron.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Those are looking nice, Aaron. Are you brushing or spraying?

Hi Todd,
I'll be trying the Epiphanes shortly on a current project.
I'll be using Laurent's 1:1:1 mix of Epiphanes clear varnish/ Accelerator/ Brushing reducer.
Do you know if the 10% acetone and Japan dryer are recommended for brushing as well? or for just spraying?

Hi David,

Good to hear from you. I hope you're well.

The acetone is added to help successive coats "bite" into previous coats, to minimize witness lines. Therefore, I'm quite sure Laurent would recommend using it for brushing as well as spraying, though he did not specifically say one way or the other. The japan drier is added to speed the cure time, for a harder finish in the short term. Again, Laurent did not specify whether he would add that for brushing, but I would think there would be no reason not to. I'm speaking from my own reasoning here, not from experience, but I would think that the japan drier would not speed curing so much as to affect flow out when brushing, which, if it would, would be the only reason not to use it, as far as I can think. Flow out will be affected by your choice of thinner, which is why Laurent recommended a slower-evaporating thinner (Epifanes brushing thinner instead of their spray thinner, or turpentine) for brushing.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I used to brush all of my finishes, which is what first led me to use the U500 as a guitar finish, as it levels out and brushes on smoother than anything else I had tried. Now, I sometimes spray the U500 and it works very well, too. If you choose to brush the finish, be sure to use a really high quality natural bristle brush. I use a badger bristle brush.
Here is the finish method I use for the U500:
1. If the wood is porous and needs filled, I use mainly zpoxy, but you can use your filler of choice. For zpoxy, I usually apply 2-3 coats and level sand the last coat with 400 grit 3m gold paper.
2. Brush or spray first coat of the U500, making sure it is thin and even. If it is slightly uneven, don't worry, it will level out really well.
3. Allow to cure at least overnight, minimum of 12 hours.
4. If first coat is cured, and has no tacky spots, lightly go over the instrument with 400 grit, not to level sand, just to scuff the surface a bit. It will make a fine white powder when you lightly sand it with 400 grit if properly cured.
5. apply second coat, allow to dry overnight, then apply 3rd coat, let it cure overnight.
6. For 4th coat, lightly scuff the whole surface with 400 grit paper, if there are irregularities in the finish, level them out as best you can without sanding into the previous coats too deeply.
7. Apply coats 5 and 6, letting the finish cure overnight between coats., and 3-4 days after coat 6.
8. By this time, if applied nice and evenly, you should have enough of a surface build to try and level sand.
9. Start with 400 grit and level sand the entire instrument, working up to 800 grit, do not skip any grits between.
If you do not have any sand thru, proceed sanding up to 2000 grit, higher if you like.
10. Let the instrument rest for a day or two, then buff out to a beautiful, rich, glossy sheen! (I use menzerna fine, and very fine compounds)

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Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies

Thanks Todd,
I'll try to report back as it all proceeds.
Best!