Official Luthiers Forum!

My CNC router experiences a decent amount of downtime at the moment and I have also noticed the exceptionally high prices of most templates. I am willing to cut your templates using any type of wood or plastic material (aluminum may be offered in the future.) Creating cutting paths for templates is rather trivial. If you do not have CAD drawings for your design I can draw them for you for a reasonable flat fee based on complexity. Pricing will depend on materials, but will be a fraction of what other suppliers are selling them for... I'm sorry, but charging $80 for a few pieces of 1/8" hardboard is nuts. My plan is to offer materials that are relatively insensitive to variations in humidity cut them with high precision, and still sell them for less than half of what the other guys are. For starters I'm leaning towards signboard/MDO (if desired, it's easy enough to laminate it with a bit of melamine to keep the friction low), acrylic, and polyethylene (particularly if you are using it for fixturing, perhaps installing braces with a vacuum press, the glue will release easily.)

Pretty much anything is on the table right now. I've done everything from drilling guides for effects pedals to pistol grips and custom lighted panels for rackmount computers. If you have a project that you can't tackle easily on your own without CNC, send me a PM.

Thanks!

Could you do radius dishes?
Thanks for the offer, I'll send you a PM if I think of anything .

Hi Andrew, I do radius dishes as well and am situated in Canada. Josh House, Canadian Luthier Supplies, is another sponsor of the forum, makes radius dishes and is located right in Ontario. Both Josh and I make these dishes in house on our cnc machines and we each have a slightly different process.

Thanks
Shane

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Canada

Definitely, that would be a straightforward job. I did a quick search to see what's out there already as well as the going rate. Yet again, I was shocked by the price for the quality of product. Has the MBA mindset of "the bottom line is everything" really spread so far that luthiers are suffering from it? I just came across a place offering MDF radius dishes for more than the cost of a 4x8 sheet. Yes, machine time is money... But with the proper ball end bit it should still take very little time.

Sorry for the rant. Not only can we make radius dishes, we have enough room on our cutting bed to even take it a step further and include fixturing that could simplify the process. I would prefer not to make it out of MDF unless it's a one-off job and even then would prefer to take some measure to seal it. What could be a really great idea would be to make a male form out of MDO and casting the dish in a thin sheet of concrete. The concrete form would be very stable, the MDO would be reusable... Not a bad idea.

To clarify for everyone here: Electric Guitars and Basses are the bread and butter for my company. I'm not trying to get rich selling templates, fixtures, or even the occasional part. The markup will be enough to help us as we are still a very young company, and it will be minimal compared to what I've seen. While the technology is becoming more affordable, getting into CNC still isn't quite cheap. The learning curve for someone with zero CAD experience would be steep to say the least. But I firmly believe that everyone deserves access to such precision equipment, as well as the expertise to operate it, for a reasonable cost. I'm sick of 1/8" hardboard and MDF templates selling for $80 a set. I also believe helping people who have helped and been good to me is the right thing to do and another way to pay it forward.

OK, so at present I sell double 3/4" laminated radius dishes for $75 (they are going up to $87.50 soon), that is indeed MUCH more than a sheet of 3/4" mdf (which is about $40) and I can get 4 dishes out of a sheet of MDF. But I need to cut the sheet into eight pieces, machine them into 24" circles, glue them together and wait for that to dry. Then I put them on the machine again (a MANY thousands of dollars investment, with tooling and fixtures) and let the program run for 69 minutes. Then I take them off and finish sand them on the shop made (for about $1000) rim sanding machine. Once that is done they are labelled and then two coats of varnish are applied on all sides. So by the time I am done with the labour we aren't really making a ton of money, but I am making enough to help keep the lights on on this forum which I have sponsored without interruption for about 7 years.

Anyway, rant for rant.

Shane

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Canada

Whoa! I wasn't attacking anyone personally and was certainly not directing my little rant at anyone that I am aware of on this forum. Additionally, I extend my fullest apologies since you appear to have been offended. Are we good, Shane? The last thing I'm trying to do around here is breed any ill will.

Your process indeed sounds labor intensive, and I have nothing against you personally or your company.

Hugh
I would be interested in templates for guitars/bracing, headstocks, and fretscale templates for my fretting box... etc
if they end up a little more reasonable $$$ than LMI or SM..
Cheers
Charliewood
PS: I can attest to the extremely high quality and accuracy of Shanes radius dishes - oh yeah and thier durabilty as well... as they have not been treated tenderly and are still mint...thnx top notch product Shane! in fact Id like a couple more...

I'd like to thank Shane, Josh, and all of the OLF sponsors.

Hugh, perhaps you'd like to become a sponsor, and advertise your stuff here????

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Hugh,

I agree with Shane you don't have a clue!

Our actual cnc cost over $125,00 not to mention dust collection, electrical hook-up, heat and air for the room, dedicated computer, vacuum pumps, handling equipment, material storage and on and on. One of our lasers cost more than $50,000 and the other more than $25,000. Now on top of this add insurance, license cost, utility bills, replacement cost and repairs, disposable tooling, employee's, Social Security, Workers compensation and on and on again.

While MDO works great for signs ( we've used a lot of it ) It has far to many voids to make guitar fixtures...... Azek with a top veener would probably be a better choice if you want something different. As for concrete why do you think they add expansion joints?

When making items you should also look at the complexity and cost for design/cad work and fixturing. ( We've had someone drawing cad drawings almost constant 7 days a week for almost 4.5 years now and still not through ... not all the same person but if you figure man hours that's what it would come out to be... )

Before you make statements this broad maybe you should operate your machine for awhile and see where your real cost are.

Blessings,

Kevin

www.waldronmusic.com

All I will say is that there is a big difference between doing this as a hobby and doing it as a business . Most of us started as a hobbiest but soon learn the costs of doing business.
I do agree that there are better substances that MDF and they cost more than MDF. They may look like it but they are not . I don't use MDF as it isn't strong or stable enough. Not Ranting here but educating .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

First and foremost, this is not directed towards everyone. 99.9%+ of you have been either supportive of me or at least have left me with a positive impression. Below is my response to recent unpleasantness that is sufficiently troll-like that I will simply ignore it in the future.

I have done nothing to offend any of you and yet you choose to insult my intelligence? Until today I have always enjoyed the general civility of these forums and would appreciate an apology at the very least.

For the past five months I have been unemployed, and rather than feel sorry for myself in a slow economy I took it upon myself to found a company with a longtime friend. We are registered as an LLC and currently have no employees outside of our partnership. I college I double majored in Biochemistry and Mechanical Engineering. As a result, we were able to design and fabricate a 3-axis CNC router with precision of 0.0005" and a cutting area of 24"x36"x6" for a total budget of less than $1500. We also designed and assembled all of the control systems and built them into the same rack-mount chassis as our computer and monitor. Being educated and clever has saved us an enormous amount of money, largely because we can do so much on our own. Eventually we will be adding plasma, laser, and EDM to our list of capabilities and when we are sufficiently large commercially produced equipment will be discussed. However, for now, what we have is more than sufficient to do the job. CAD can be time consuming, but I took up learning how to use it in 3rd grade and it is second nature to me. I've spent many hours developing our product line thus far and simply consider it to be sweat equity.

If you're careful about your sources, void free MDO does exist... And I don't recall recommending it for all guitar fixtures. I conducted an exhaustive study on Azek last year examining material and adhesion properties. For the price and properties I wouldn't even consider it in my top 20 options. Concrete has an exceptionally low coefficient of thermal expansion. It also has outstanding compressive strength and is commonly used to make cauls for hydraulic presses processing bent laminations (skateboard decks are often made using this method.) Expansion joints are only needed when wide temperature ranges will be experienced by large slabs. Such slabs generally contain reinforcement bars that are more prone to expansion and contraction... While concrete has wonderful compressive strength it is weak in tension, which further plays a role in that design consideration.

Exactly what broad statements did I make that have you so worked up? I'm busting my tail taking on a wide variety of projects to help people in this community while I raise money to focus more on our top priority: Electric Guitars and Basses.

By the way, and not that this is really anyone's business, I contacted LanceK in early August for clarification on forum policy. I'm generically offering services rather than specific products (aside from suggesting templates as a possibility,) so I wanted to make sure it wouldn't be a problem. Over two weeks later, after not receiving a response, I went ahead and posted. As a startup and otherwise being unemployed I don't have much to donate at the moment, but we are discussing options and I am certain something will be worked out. If this is what has you so riled up, keep in mind that people are approaching me for things they apparently aren't finding elsewhere. If existing paying sponsors want to advertise willingness to take on random projects and one-offs while not charging $50/hr for CAD no one is stopping you.

All I'm trying to do is get my business going. And I will do it by working hard and without calling any of you names or otherwise insulting you.

cost of a product must include:

cost of materials (including cost of going to get it (gas, vehicle wear, value of personal time, etc)
amortization cost of machinery and upkeep
utilities
shop space
value of labor

on top of that...well...what the market will bear...this is a tricky part because one must consider just how much time he/she wants to spend on any particular part of the business...one might find it more profitable to raise their price (most likely reducing demand) and finding that sweet spot where if one wishes to only make 10 dishes per month, they are able to sell each and every one at an 'inflated' price...

I think Hugh is trying to offer a "blue light special" if you will to get a kick into his new business, I wish him luck BTW, it's a bad economy and we all need to make a living. Shane, Kevin and the others are right about cost, but concerning radius dishes it sounds like Hugh was going to cast his dishes off of a machined master.

One thing Hugh might consider is a design/build of somethig that's not readilly available from our traditional suppliers, it could highlight your design capabilities and your manufacturing savvy in a low cost high quality part, and maybe help people get to know your capabilities.
I might suggest a nice elegant rosette cutter or something along those lines. Just food for thought.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Shane,
are you back in business now? I sent you an email about buying some tops awhile ago, but I bet you still have a lot of those to catch up on.
I did see that you sell radius dishes, but I was just looking for a quote from hugh because at the moment I'd rather make some jigs to do them myself than spend $150 on a pair of radius dishes.

Hugh, send me a PM with what you would be asking for them. You could use just one layer and ship it right off the machine if you prefer, leaving the laminating and final sanding to me.

Hey Andrew, I am indeed back processing tops and I am still way behind. But send me another e-mail and I will let you know where I am at.

Hugh, a big part of business is to understand the business. If you look at the top of this forum page you will see that all of the major luthiery suppliers are sponsors. So, if you aren't talking to any of them or any of us smaller independent guys that also spend money monthly on this forum to help Lance keep things going then who are you suggesting are charging inflated rates on anything? A manufacturer can always undercut a retailer, there is no great surprise or wisdom in that, the parts I manufacture I can sell less than the big stores who retail them. The things I retail I have to work hard to compete with them because of the different buying structures. I buy lots of stuff from LMI and Stewmac and others and am happy that they have taken the time to source the things we need so we can one stop shop. I have never said anything bad about any other retailers business practice because if I am unhappy with it I shop elsewhere and if I compete with them then I have some margin to work with. I found your "rants" rather disrespectful to those of us that have paved the road you intend to walk on. If you want to form a business relationship with Lance and use the forum to help build your business (as I and others have) then do that. Don't assume that because Lance hadn't responded to you (I know that he has now and before you posted your last post) that you had permission to do as you wish. I believe that I am now the longest standing, uninterrupted sponsor of this forum and I feel that gives me the right to protest when someone comes on and says words to the effect of "hey!, you all are being screwed by your current suppliers but no worries I am here to save the day". Believe me that is totally how I read your first two posts. Maybe I am wrong in what you said but I am certainly not wrong in how it read to my eyes. If you had taken the time to review some of the sponsors or even asked any one of us how that process has worked for us then maybe that would have been "better business". So, I feel an apology is in order but not from me!

As far as product for fixtures, I offer this. A Luthiers shop typically is at the very least monitored for humidity. MDF fixtures in items like radius dishes are actually super durable and a very good choice, both from a price point position and from weight position (being that some mass is good in a sanding fixture). I varnish all sides with two coats and nobody will convince me (after the hundreds I have already made) that anything is superior, other products will likely function as well but in my mind nothing will function better. There are other issues as well that come into play with sheet goods, any sheet goods (plywood, mdf, plastic, steel) that requires them to be laminated prior to machining a single surface to ensure that they don't distort. I will leave that for you to research before you continue to suggest that a low cost substrate will result in a poor end product.

There is a reason that Kevin, Josh, John and I are allied in these responses, and that with knowing that many of us produce similiar products that compete with each other. So please figure out the business end and quit ranting, contact Lance, get set up and just price however you please and stop slagging other business people. You do that, I will leave you alone, controversy is not my favourite pass time.

Shane

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Canada

wow....it must be the moon phase!

While I do not have a machine that cost 1500, I do have one that is paid for with no overhead to speak of and not a lot of income. I could, if I wanted to, cut those dishes for cost plus anything and make some money! The question is why would I want to? In another field, I have played the lower price than the others for far too long, and I can honestly say, I have nothing to show for it. I now intend to go the other direction. If a customer wants one of my products, they are gonna pay for it. Not gouging, but a good honest wage with some profit on top. I was a fool in business for many years because I thought I needed to take care of the little guy, because I was one....still am, but my attitude has changed. The little guy customer will never appreciate the sacrifice you have made for him past the inital purchase....you have permission to ask me how I know this! I have had customers for whom I knocked several dollars off a price just to help them and they in turn would make their next purchase from the person who did it a couple dollars less. On the other hand, I have done work for millionaires who wanted me to take my time, do the very best job I could do and when the job was finished, paid me a bonus for a job well done!

If you are going to do this as a business, then do it as a business and your turn will come somewhere down the road. As for Shane, listen carefully to what he is saying. He is telling you the truth.....and I know him pretty well.

Mike

I had formulated a response to your initial post and a PM to you Hugh, right after Shane posted his first response but I tossed it as I'm no longer a fan of confrontational posts. Which is also why I was offended at your initial post.

I'm glad I tossed that response & PM because Shane has basically voiced my feelings in a much more eloquent fashion than I could have.

Be a little more humble, let your work speak for itself and things will go well for you. Slamming others won't get you very far as hopefully you've now learned.

We're a small & tight group....let's all play nice.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com