Official Luthiers Forum!

An interesting thing happened to me on the way to the music store this weekend.

I walked in to a newly opened musical instrument store her in Odessa this weekend. While talking with the manager he informed me he had played one of my instruments a couple weeks ago that I build for one of the local musicians a couple years ago. He said that both he and the owner of the store really like it (an OM, Walnut-Carpathian) and wondered if I had any instruments available.

Thinking that the manager or owner were interested in buying one I explained that I had one classical in house but that it was my personal and that I worked on commission basis only. The manager explained that the owner was interested in caring my line not buying one.

Having been through a bad consignment deal in the past I explained that first I did not feel that I could do consignment but would be willing to build a couple instruments that they could buy and resale. So the owner and I sat down to talk.

What a joke!!! I explained my commission pricing and he informed me that he give me 60% of my retail and sell 5-10 or more a year. But in exchange he wanted me to handle their setup and repair work on the side.

It was all I could do to keep from laughing. Needless to say this went nowhere.

Michael, talk him down to a 75/25 ratio, and you might have something.
Oh, and make him buy all the wood.

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

I refuse to deal with anyone asking more than 20, my main shop asks 15, and is run by former luthiers, and they fully understand the deal about effort involved here .. others are simply being greedy and expecting to take advantage of you and your hard work - they seem to think they are doing you some kind of favour. .... just as Michael noticed after a short conversation.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I've done 20-25% commission; currently I would stick with 20. I'll go 30% for retailer to purchase.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

The part that was funny to me was the fact he wanted me to do set-up and repair work for min. wage on Saturdays. I offered 20% commission on any sales and 20% on any repair work refered to me, but that I am a full time engineer M-F and build evenings and weekends, I really did not need a third job. it turned out that the Saturday set-up tech was a deal breaker for him.

I am with Howard on this. I think the "where" the guitars are is just as important (more) than the "how much" are they taking.

These guys are handling your reputation so you want to make sure their interests are aligned with yours. I would also beware of consigning instruments in places that carry the big brands. The big brands are rough on their retailers and *force* them to take product whether sales are moving or not, so you can be sure they will say anything they have to to keep these brands moving through the store.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

You're not a factory! Small luthiery doesn't "have" big margins to give away!

I'm pretty sure he hasn't dealt with small builders before.

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I don't see anything wrong with this transaction (or, non-transaction as it were). The shop owner needed something that he thought Michael could provide. Michael couldn't provide the product or the service at the terms the shop owner wanted and no deal was struck. That the two parties were so far apart reflects a difference in their respective needs. No one was trying the cheat anybody. The deal didn't make sense and that was that.

What most likely happened was that the store owner saw one of Michael's guitars and thought that it was good work and maybe he could be his set-up/repair guy and perhaps sell a few guitars too. That wasn't anything close to what Michael needed. If Michael was 22 years old and dying to make guitars for a living, he might have thought that this would be a good deal because it beats flipping burgers for a living.

I never figured anyone was trying to cheat anyone. What made me laugh was tht they wanted me to work the weekends as there tech not tht I thought he was trying to cheat me

Mike Mahar kinda hit it on the head. True 'Capitalism' at it's finest............AND....

Michael P I don't know you personally but I do know that there are certain personality types (and the good luthiers / makers certainly fit this category) that take a LOT of pride in what their own hard work, blood, sweat and tears create. Consequently, an offer for that product that does not reflect the same 'spirit' is simply...and quickly...not acceptable...even sometimes insulting. So in short...even though I don't know you....I'm with you bro....Even though I firmly believe in capitalism...I would have been (to some degree) insulted were I wearing your shoes.

I charge $70 dollars per man hour for landscape work...PROFESSIONAL, SKILLED landscape work..and to this day I will run into someone that doesn't want to pay more than $7 dollars per hour...and it drives me crazy still. Yet somehow I end up being the one that's crazy if you were to listen to these people.

This brings me to another point. I vehemently believe that it is AS IMPORTANT for the 'goods' provider to CHOOSE the customer...as it is for the customer to choose the provider. For whatever the goods or services will be. Matching a high end customer to a low end provider simply doesn't work...and vice versa.

_________________
There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Well maybe i think differently than others here, but a store owner who has to regularly BUY guitars from distributors with HIS money up front (or net 60 or whatever financing he has) at 60 percent of MSRP (std discount) is simply trying to take advantage of a small builder with whom he wants to get the guitars for FREE and then only payout 60% once sold ..... the same as if he had bought them outright. With his guitars, its his money he is paying interest on, and worrying about stock turnover and such. His risk is ZERO with someone elses product.

And then on top of that, he wants to tie the selling of the guitars to Michael's abillity to do the repair work ... totally unacceptable. IMO he doesnt really want the guitars .. he only wants a repair tech.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

It seems Tony got the same opinion I did. the offer was never about the instruments. For him it was about an employee position he can't seem to fill in this area.

I don’t think it was a mater so much of trying to cheat me on the price of my guitars as it was that he is in a bind on set-up and repair personnel. Or at least kill two birds with one stone.

After our set down and during the niceties of saying our good byes; I jokingly told him if he could pay me 72k a year and offer insurance and benefits that I get at my real job that I would come to work for him but that it was impossible for me to even thing about a weekend job and maintain my lutherie business. He did still some what hold out a chance of buying an instrument or two to resell.

We will see but I am not about to offer 40% off. 20% yes, 25% maybe but no more. It is not like the market in Odessa Texas is some big endless market to break into. In Austin this might have been worth a compromise of some sort. But in Odessa…..Naaaaaaaaa.

Sounds like an exploitive rip off merchant to me. Oh, the heady world of business.

Not really Sam. The rough and tumble business world leaves a lot for terms and if somebody doesn't understand a specific of a market, vis-a-vis, this guy not knowing about "small luthiery realtities" then he makes an offer that doesn't work. Like the Guitar Mafia "it's not personal... it's business"!

It's not uncommon for dealers to get 40%-50%, or more, as they have the expense of advertising, rent, payroll, customer dealings, inventory... . A small luthier is in his garage or rents some shop in some small podunk part of this little world we live in.

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)