Official Luthiers Forum!

Right, a question: which carbide-tipped resaw blade would you reccomend for a 16" ( bandsaw that can take up to 3/4" wide blades (according to the manufacturer, and that's what fits neatly on the wheels). I've got a few BladeRunners from Iturra, and it seems to me like the 1/2" Lennox TriMaster, .025" thickness, would be the best bet for me. I expect I'll mostly be cutting up walnut, cherry, some mahogany/african mahogany/sapele, very maybe some rosewood if I can find it in billet form. Price is certainly right from u-cut, particularly given the incredibly tempting dollar-euro exchange rate right now.

You can't fault tri-master, I have used them for years. I would use the 3/4" .035 ( don't forget that there is no set on carbide blades) , you will get a narrow kerf. Order direct from Lenoxsaw.com ( best weld and warrantee, and can be sharpened at least 2 times.)

Dean

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Dean

Lou Iturra recommended the 1/2" wide thinner blade to me in part because of the relatively small wheels (16") - I guess I'll contact Lenox and ask them what they recommend on that count.

Also, U-cut get theirs direct from Lenox, far as I understand (they don't stock the smaller blade sizes themselves), and their pricing was the best I'd found (came to under 1 dollar per inch, welding charge included).

Mattia,
I had issues with the 1/2" Tri-Master cutting cocobolo. As you know this is a very resinous wood and the tri-master just would not clear the sawdust out of the kerf causing overheating of the blade and subsequent binding (dangerous), even with a 2hp motor. That said, I have had very good success with non-oily or resinous woods including cherry and walnut using the tri-master on my Rikon 18".
I guess we just have to remember that all blades for resawing aren't good in all circumstances.... you have to pick the right blade for the wood being cut at the time.

Good luck.
Tom Armstrong

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(alias: gasawdust)

Helps to feed more slowly so as not to fill the gullet.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Part of the issue with the Trimaster is that the rake angle on the tooth is very flat, and it relies on high tension and heavy hp to punch it through the wood. It's almost a hammer-like effect. A lot of us folks with Delta 14's and smaller saws experience big problems with the trimaster for those reasons. That's one of the reasons I switched to the AluminumMaster, and bought the Laguna...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Flatter rake angle should be better for very hard, oily woods, no? Isn't a 14" saw just too small for carbide? Is AluminumMaster a carbide blade?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Not from my own experience, but there seems to be quite a buzz about the Lennox WoodMaster CT (carbide tipped), among those resawing wood for guitar sets, and with a 16" bandsaw, you could handle the 1" blade.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I use an aluminum-master style blade for most cutting, and the Laguna Resaw King for Brazilian and ebony (ie: big dollar wood). Laguna 16HD saw, same as Don and BobC, IIRC.

As an aside, the kerf of the blade doesn't matter a smidge if your saw can't hold the blade to a dead-straight cut. You're better off with a much thicker band that'll hold itself straight than a thin-kerf blade that's going to bow and wander in a resaw cut since you're either going to give a little extra wood to the kerf or a lot extra to the jointer if you don't have high-end guides and a perfect saw setup.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Wow, I do just the opposite! I use the Resaw King for everything BUT the really hard exotics and Brazilian. I find it dulls quickly in those, but then I have the old style RK blade, prior to the teeth being carbide-impregnated. The AluminumMaster goes through Brazilian like butter...

Bob, is (are) your RK blade(s) the new tooth design or the old one?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Don where on laguna's site do you see that the new blades have carbide impregnated teeth.
All I see is the same C8 steel. Am I missing something?

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

According to my documentation (and, y'know, measuring the wheel diameter), 3/4" wide bands are all my saw is 'allowed' to handle. I'm assuming you don't want 1/4" of blade overhanging the tires. I don't doubt I can tension a wider blade, mind you, but keeping it tracking is another issue...

Actually, it's OK to have the teeth off the tire. Saves tire wear.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I had problems with carbide on Cocobolo too, specifically the Laguna Resaw King. Literally would not cut a 4 - 1/2" board. It didn't work very well on Wenge either. Speed did not matter.

You can go through a lot of Timberwolf AS-S blades before you pay for a $100 - $200 carbide. The carbide, if cutting well, does make for narrower kerf and a better finish but, as someone else said, only if it's cutting straight.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

I've bailed on using carbide tipped blades on the bandsaw.
For a third the cost I use Lennox bi-metal blades I get from Hastings Saw in Santa Rosa CA. You won't find a better made blade than what Dave builds. Perfect straight smooth welds. I'm able to have my local saw shop re-sharpen the bi-metals 3 or so times before they loose too much set to be usable. They're "3-4 TPI vari tooth" 3/4" wide bands.
I don't think the carbide can be sharpened, and if you hit something hard and chip a tooth it's good nite. It's such a tiny little bit of carbide there's not much to begin with.
He's also got a thin kerf that's good for precious materials for when you want to squeeze another set out of a billet. They dull more quickly, but man what a cut.
-C

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

I had no problems cutting cocobolo with my wood slicer blade from Highland Hardware. Its now carbide however.

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

Bob, over a year ago they said they had made a change on their teeth from the C-8 steel, to a carbide-impregnated C-8 steel. It was supposed to give them longer life before resharpening, or so they said. It was on their site for awhile, and the last time I spoke with them they told me about it. It could have been all hooey for all I know, but that's what I was told, as was another NEL member.


Kent, the Resaw King does not have carbide teeth....it's either a special hardened steel, or a carbide-impregnated steel, but it's not solid carbide... It's a different kind of beast, hence the lack of ability to stay sharp and get through some of those tougher oilier woods. I dulled one instantly trying to go through a plank of Brazilian. I couldn't do it.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

hmmmmm they told me they changed the tooth pattern to a 2/3 variable pitch and that should make them last longer.


Well no doubt I cut a lot of wood and have tried just about every blade out there including the Lenox Bi-Metal.
Without a doubt the Laguna is by far the smoothest cutting blade of all. It will cut the softer hardwoods like walnut,mahogany, etc and stay sharp for quite a while. they can be re-sharpened about 3 times or so @ about $50 a pop Most of the other metal blades will die a quick death on woods with a high silica content like makore. I have settled on the Lenox Alum. master and the Lenox Woodmaster CT both in 1" widths. They last a farily long time which for me is about 3-4 weeks. They CAN be sharpened 3-4 times.


Mattea the 3/4" width should work fine and as Howard stated above the teeth can overhang the rubber 1/8" or so. I routinely do that.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Mattia,
I think Bob C. and I use very similar blades, his Alum. Master and woodmaster CT makes good sense. Each blade has strengths over the other because of the tooth configuration. I use a Trimaster, but I believe the Alum. Master is a little more supple, and may be better suited to 16" wheels.

Be sure to clean your blades frequently. Carbide tipped blades do not dull quickly, but they can seem to dull if they have build up on them.

Rich

When I resaw I have been first ripping a kerf on both sides of the cut using a Freud Diablo blade on my tablesaw. I can get it about 1-5/8" deep using stiffeners. The kerf is only 1/16". Then I resaw without a fence if the block is wide enough to sit solidly on the band saw table (squared up first on the jointer, of course). I do this (no fence) because I'm using a steel blade (usually Timberwolf), and I've found that the lead angle keeps changing during a cut. The blade really does not want to leave the kerfs, and usually I barely have any marks from the bandsaw blade where I cut the kerfs on the table saw, so I lose 1/16" or a few thousandths more than that to the kerf. A perfect bandsaw cut without pre-kerfing might save 10-15 thousandths, but how often does that happen? (less often, in my experience, than a rough cut that needs cleanup). I also greatly reduce my stress level. I suppose that if resawing is your business this may be too time consuming when compared to a really well setup 18" or larger resaw with a carbide blade and a good fence. Works for me, though.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I use the RK on Brazilian, along with spending just about an hour setting up the saw (every time), because with that setup I get six clean slices to an inch every cut. If you're getting a one-inch plank of Braz cut out, then that's +$X per slice just for the setup (before cutting time), and the cutting time is much longer than using the AM-style blade, but 50% more yield in Brazilian tends to be worth it to those customers.

On anything cheaper, I've got a jointer set up behind the saw to rip off a paper-thin cut every pass, so the sloppier cut is more than made up for in labour savings. Time is a huge factor here, though. If I didn't have the shop in the background I'd have the saw set up dead-on, and be using the RK on everything with the world's slowest power feeder and a good blade cleaner or mister getting/keeping the gunk off the blade.

On a less rigid saw, I'd do the same thing Howard's doing. I've fed a mahogany neck-blank through a small saw on one of those rounded fences and gotten a straight cut within maybe 0.01", but it was awfully slow going and it required a lot of finesse.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

You know I think the subject of the best blade or best set up on bandsaws is a slippery subject. A lot of the info that is passed about is from people who have different needs. I recall when I started out with my 14" I was all about low loss, hot rodding to get more accuracy and every bit of use out of the power available. I think I learned a lot from using that saw to its fullest potential, however looking back I see that I confused myself many times. Thing about that saw was that it needed to be watched (set up wise) very closely, and when I used very low loss blades they amplified many of the set up issues. Thus I attributed my problems to an issue with my set up, and assumed the blades were either sharp or dull (good or bad). After moving to a larger machine that holds a tight tune very well (lots of the tricks from the 14" helped me focus my efforts on the new machine). I have come to realise that the blade type and condition(clean, clearing, holding and even sharp) is where most problems start (the machine itself holds its tune).

I was in a wood working store the other day and was listening to the advise being given to another customer. The salesman was telling the other customer to grind back the blade, at first I thought he was speaking of the trueing the weld/back of the blade and rounding the back a bit. This was not the case he was explaining to the customer how to remove the tooth set to provide a smooth cut. I said that does not sound like a good idea to me, why not just buy a low loss blade?, at least you would have a balanced set that way(not sure how they gauged the set after random grinding). The salesman responded, "you don't need any tooth set". The salesman asked what type resawing I do. He chimed in with his account of resawing 7" hard maple stock, I explained the volume of cuts(cuts in the thousands, not tens or hundreds), widths, typical thickness and tolerance and types of woods I resaw. He had seen a guy make a(single) very smooth cut using a regular blade with the tooth set ground down to nothing. Well YES, that is the idea behind low loss blades(reduce the blades thickness, reduce the set to squat), however that is at the cost of a margin of tolerance for material that does not clear. You can pull off a few very very slow low loss cuts, and it requires a great deal of skill to tune your machine well enough and feed your stock evenly enough to pull spot on results. So this was a case of a concept that certainly has merit, but not something that was fully explained or understood(certainly not a good place to randomly grind away at your blades teeth, as that may lead to mistracking). That same day I heard another salesman telling a fella that you can't rely on a fixed fence (that you have to be able to adjust tracking as you are resawing). It is true that you need to adjust your fence so that it aligns with your blade, but I promise you I do not make any adjustments manually when I am trying to hold tight tolerances.

Different blades have different advantages(these are real differences, and nothing "magical"). Never think for a second that Carbide tipped blades will not last 5 to 10 times(if not more) than regular hardened steel tips. With some of the woods we cut the difference may be less notable(regular hardened last a long while, carbide may almost never wear), but certain woods will eat hardened tips up in a heartbeat and leave carbide pretty much un phased. Clean the buildup off your blades(this is huge), as a carbide will get dirty after a few to a hundred or so cuts(same as any blade), a clean with a steel brush will clean it up and you will likely find it sticky sharp. Choose a blade that suits your needs for speed and volume.

Examples;
Woodslicers Bladerunners, etc.. Very thin Kerf. extreamly narrow tooth set, hardened steel tips, relatively average to high TPI for "our" typical resawing (less than 2=mild lower, 2-3=med, 4+=high), mild cut prone to clogging, smooth cut, very touchy during tracking, slower cutting, no tolerance for mis-tuned machine.Low reliability, slow, low volume is best(hundreds of typical cuts)

Trimaster- Mild to thin Kerf. mildy narrow tooth set, Carbide tips, relatively average TPI for "our" typical resawing , mild cut slightly prone to clogging, fairly smooth cut, reliable tracking, quick cutting, tolerant to machine changes(material binding in a guide or what have you).High reliability, average speed, high volume is fine(thousands of typical cuts).

Woodmaster CT- Med. Kerf. average tooth set, Carbide tips, relatively low TPI for "our" typical resawing, aggresive cut, huge gullets less prone to clogging, med smooth cut, very reliable tracking, fast cutting, tolerant to machine changes(material binding in a guide or what have you). Extreamly high reliability, High speed, high volume is fine(thousands of typical cuts).

I think for many users Carbide tipped blades are almost lifetime blades. I know you can cut hundreds of back and side sets, hundreds of soundboard sets, and neck, fretboard, bridge, veneers, bindings- for hundreds of guitars. I know first hand that you will get thousands of cuts out of these blades, before re-sharps. If you have a carbide tipped blade you think is dull. Try using a 6" steel brush(BBQ cleaner style works), spin your blade backwards and run the brush against the sides of the teeth and gullets till you see shiny tips(doesn't take too long). Then of course you can brush (and chip away with a razor blade) any buildup on the sides of the blade. I light wipe with Naptha and the blade should be dandy.

Rich

Thanks for your post, Rich. As I described above, for the little amount of resawing I do, I have found something that works, but it's not the method that someone doing thousands or even hundreds of cuts would find efficient. I currently do my resawing on a 16" Laguna/Meber HD with Carter guides in place of the original awful Euro guides that they were using 9-10 years ago. I have not yet tried carbide, going by the old axiom that you need a bigger saw than 16" to run a carbide blade.

I have an old 20" Delta that needs some refurbishing (new tires, guides, motor--hopefully that's all; the bearings seem good), which will become my dedicated resaw when I move to my new shop this summer. I plan to get a good carbide blade, which as you say may last for life (what remains of mine, anyway) in my application.

Question: some folks on this thread have praised the Lennox Aluminum Master. Where would you put that in your system of descriptions above? BTW the Delta has its original 1 hp motor. I have a good 2 hp Delta motor that I was thinking of using. What kind of power do you suggest for the blades above? That was left out of your analysis.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

The Tri-Master I had for a while seemed to have a more limber band, as it doesn't need to have the carbon content necessary for the teeth (?), therefore I'd assume the wheel diameter is less of a concern. Horsepower is more important, especially with a zero rake tooth blade. More is better. For a 20 " saw I'd say 2 hp is pretty much the minimum. Someone more educated than me can describe what HP & duty ratings all mean. I've got a 3 phase 1hp motor that has a 100% duty rating, which in modern terms means it's equal to a 2 hp or so my local motor guy says. I have no need for it (I'm single phase) if any one wants it. It's huge and you'll have to come get it in Portland OR. Howard- do call up Hastings Saw. He's the guy to talk blades with.
I probably know the store you were in Rich. Sometimes I just want to slap the occasional salesman giving advice to weekend warriors. Any more I don't interject unless I hear suggestions that I think are dangerous.
Drop a line sometime and we can talk shop. I'll be at Marylhurst too.
-C

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Curious if anyone has successfully used a 1" blade, more specifically a 1" carbide tipped blade, and it would be great if the specific blade was the Woodmaster CT, on a 14" bandsaw. I too have heard that carbide blades require larger wheels (I had heard that 16" was the minimum wheel size.)

When I look at the blades, the carbide tips on the Woodmaster CT are teensie weencie. They can't really be the reason that a 14" wheel is required, are they?

Or is the 1" width of the blade (and its relatively less flexible character) the problem?

Oh, how I would love to hear now that what I heard before was all a myth! And, that you have successfully used a 1" Woodmaster CT on a 14" bandsaw. (I'd be willing to get a bigger motor if that was really the only problem.)

Thanks,

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia