Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Jul 17, 2025 4:26 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:12 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:44 pm
Posts: 706
First name: Wendy
Last Name: W
State: Arizona
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I have always used regular Titebond until recently when I used type II for part of a rope glue-up. Does one serve all purposes for you, or do you use each for different jobs? I now have a bottle of each and don't know when to reach for which. I know some of you prefer hide, and fish, but my question is specifically about what each type of Titebond is best for.
Wendy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:16 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:11 pm
Posts: 2390
Location: Spokane, Washington
First name: Pat
Last Name: Foster
Country: USA
Focus: Build
I'd recommend staying away from type III for guitar building. I recently saw a guitar built a few months ago with TB III. It was his second; his first was built in a class. The second one's action had been rising. I checked it with a straightedge along the top between the neck joint and the bridge. The fretboard is taking a dive. Can't say for sure it's TBIII, but folks have mentioned that it creeps. I use Original a lot. No complaints.

Pat

_________________
formerly known around here as burbank
_________________

http://www.patfosterguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:30 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:44 pm
Posts: 706
First name: Wendy
Last Name: W
State: Arizona
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
That's interesting. I was told to use Titebond III to glue purfling to binding before bending so that it can creep as it bends. I also used Titebond II on the outer (or inner) border of a rope that was going to be bent. Both of those instructions came from this forum, but I can't remember who or when.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:55 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:45 pm
Posts: 1370
Location: Calgary, Canada
Status: Amateur
verhoevenc wrote:
Titebond II and III have no place in guitar building.
Chris


I would agree with Chris for the most part. They both creep and it's hard to get an invisible glue line on light woods, creeps on stressed joints etc. I did use Titebond lll to add a strip to widen the sides on a pine 1-18 I'm building for the MIMF acoustic challenge as I had read similar things about it not being affected by heat. That is a true statement as I bent the pine sides easily with no separation and a more or less invisible glue line. Time will tell if it holds up, but it did the job nicely on what will be a $20 or $30 build. It also worked great to glue a broken off piece of an oak bench that sits outside full time. :P


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:46 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 am
Posts: 1310
Location: Michigan,U.S.A.
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
verhoevenc wrote:
Titebond II and III have no place in guitar building.
Chris

+1.....I agree!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:22 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:47 am
Posts: 62
First name: Jeremy
Last Name: Pappenfus
City: Whitefish
State: MT
Zip/Postal Code: 59937
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
verhoevenc wrote:
Titebond II and III have no place in guitar building.
Chris



Totally agree. Type II & III serve thier purpose in trim work, furniture and small crafts, but don't offer any advantage to guitar building. I've substituted Hide Glue for a lot of what I was doing with the original titebond and now I won't go back. I recommend taking that leap of faith.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:42 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:36 am
Posts: 1595
State: ON
Country: Canada
Status: Professional
I have used both 2 and 3 for gluing purfling to binding before bending (currently using 3 for this). The higher heat resistance makes them ideal glues for this. That is the only operation I would use 2 or 3 for.

Josh

_________________
Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com



These users thanked the author Josh H for the post: ChuckH (Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:55 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:57 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 10:45 am
Posts: 233
First name: Michael
Last Name: Tulloch
State: Vermont
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I see no use for number 2 at all. Number 1 general use.....number 3 for water proof exterior work, instead of Gorilla glue...which I no longer trust / like. Just my opinion here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:57 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 273
First name: Victor
Last Name: Seal
City: Osseo
State: MI
Zip/Postal Code: 49266
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Titebond II & III are waterproof or water resistant. III being more waterproof than II. I used III to join the back plates for a double bass. The back is first carved, then the back is bent in the upper bout. Using water and steam would cause a joint that was not waterproof to fail on bending. So far, so good. I use mostly hide glue, but ther are times that I opt for titebond I.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:31 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:24 am
Posts: 164
Location: Ohio
First name: Mike
Last Name: Tracz
I also use III to glue purfling to binding nothing else. The reason being higher heat resistance.

_Mike

_________________
_Mike Tracz
MCT Guitars
https://www.instagram.com/mustcreatethings/
https://www.youtube.com/mustcreatethings


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:35 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:44 pm
Posts: 1105
Location: Crownsville, MD
First name: Trevor
Last Name: Lewis
City: Crownsville
State: MD
Zip/Postal Code: 21032
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
violinvic wrote:
Titebond II & III are waterproof or water resistant. III being more waterproof than II. I used III to join the back plates for a double bass. The back is first carved, then the back is bent in the upper bout. Using water and steam would cause a joint that was not waterproof to fail on bending. So far, so good. I use mostly hide glue, but ther are times that I opt for titebond I.


Titebond III also has the lowest initial strength, with Titebond II in the middle of the pack, and Titebond original having the highest strength. least creep, and least environmental resistance (heat & humidity). The testing that glues undergo literally involves putting the part in a pot of boiling water to see if they delaminate. Unless you are planning on boiling your instrument, just use Titebond original...!

Trev

_________________
http://www.PeakeGuitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:56 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:30 am
Posts: 1792
Location: United States
Gorilla wood glue is an excellent PVA alternative (TB1 is an AR glue), has much better tack, dries clear and hard, has better heat resistance, and as far I can tell does not creep.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:03 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2692
I use Titebond II for marquetry purflings because of its superior heat resistance.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:29 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 303
First name: Hugh
Last Name: Evans
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
By day I work as a Technical Specialist at Franklin International, so I field this exact question on a regular basis. I've recommended Titebond II exactly once for instrument construction. Why? It was for a redwood laminated top that will never need to be dismantled and Titebond II has an affinity for "sappier" woods. For everything else I recommend Titebond Original, Titebond Extend, or animal glue. All of our PVA wood glues have the same strength at room temperature, about 3200-3400 PSI, when tested in shear on hard maple. Since they all form a bond stronger than the wood we are literally testing the strength of maple blocks, which is the reason this strength range is the same for all three. At elevated temperatures (we test at 150°F) Titebond Original and Titebond II lose roughly half of their strength while Titebond III loses up to 2/3rds. Without giving up any trade secrets there is distinct difference in the strength of a joint made with Titebond III that has seen boiling temperatures at some point early in its' life compared to one that has only been to 150°. The best creep resistance of our wood glues is Liquid Hide Glue followed by Titebond Extend, Titebond Original, Titebond II, and Titebond III (note the relation to thermal resistance at 150°F, creep is a function of temperature). Animal glues are exceptional aside from their moisture resistance. Titebond Original, and non-catalized PVAs in general, can be dismantled using heat or steam. Titebond II and III, both catalyzed, will respond to heat but will not be the high point of your day.

In very simple terms: Titebond Original, Extend, or animal glue are best for interior applications such as musical instruments. Titebond II is excellent for outdoor use where pieces will be exposed to the elements. Titebond III is excellent where high temperature moisture resistance is needed, my favorite example being cutting boards. Despite your warning eventually a cutting board is likely to spend time in a dishwasher and Titebond III can withstand such treatment... such an example of an abused cutting board sits in my office and it displays no signs of separation.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:57 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 2109
Location: South Carolina
First name: John
Last Name: Cox
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
See... Good info....

I have been thinking about what to do for a cutting board I want to build for Mom.... I was concerned because every kitchen implement she owns runs through the dishwasher every time it's used.... so regular glue just won't do the trick...

Thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:09 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:44 pm
Posts: 1105
Location: Crownsville, MD
First name: Trevor
Last Name: Lewis
City: Crownsville
State: MD
Zip/Postal Code: 21032
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
great info hugh, thanks for posting!

Trev

_________________
http://www.PeakeGuitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:41 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:54 pm
Posts: 713
Location: United States
First name: nick
Last Name: fullerton
City: Vallejo
State: ca
Zip/Postal Code: 94590
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
excellent topic.

I wonder about Gorilla glue, and consider trying it instead of epoxy for gluing a fingerboard on.

_________________
"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:00 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2692
Hugh, thanks a lot for posting.

But you seem to first say that Titebond Original and Titebond II lose the same amount of strength from exposure to 150º heat, and then to say that Titebond Original disassembles with heat much more readily than does Titebond II. Can you clarify that? Thanks!

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:17 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:22 pm
Posts: 766
-


Last edited by TonyFrancis on Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:36 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:46 am
Posts: 2996
Location: United States
Titebond III does indeed work excellent for glueing the side purfs to the binding prior to bending, its the only thing I use it on however.
Thanks for the post hugh, If you're still around I wounder if you could explain why the liquid hide glue has such a poor reputation amongst us istrument builders.
I believe it's done very well in various wood test but everyone cautions against it due to it's poor creep I believe, I've not used it except to put labels on :)
Thanks

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:38 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 303
First name: Hugh
Last Name: Evans
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Nickton: Neither liquid polyurethane or epoxy are overly convenient for attaching a fingerboard or for future maintenance. If you plan to use a PVA try surface prep with acetone prior to gluing and keep clamps on for at least 24 hours.

Howard: Sorry, the 50% strength loss at 150°F is approximate and Titebond II will lose a bit more. The reason Titebond Original disassembles more easily owe to its' lack of water resistance. Live steam will separate a neck joint almost as nicely as it will with hide glue.

Tony: The marquetry work is being done prior to bending? You may need to consider modifying the process possibly by taping over affected areas and using cauls in the bending process. We can certainly discuss this further if you would care to further elucidate.

Jim: My guess as to the mixed reputation of Liquid Hide Glue amongst instrument builders is due to experience with expired product and that it is much more finicky than modern PVAs. One ASTM spec we commonly test involves creep. Since it is a pass/fail qualification we have not historically quantified the results but I am preparing a test series to change that. I will make sure to post results here if anyone is interested. Liquid hide glue will degrade over time, and we start off with some rather high grade granular material. The best way to test it is to spread a thin film over paper and allow it to dry for a few hours. When placed over a hard surface and tapped with a fingernail it should feel similar to hard plastic. Additionally, if you attempt to bend the film it should crack extensively. Hide glue will eventually fail to fully dry and will remain tacky, which is a sure sign it is past its' useful life.

These are all good questions. I try to login a couple of times a week, and don't be afraid to shoot me a PM if you have a question.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:53 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 3272
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
I prefer epoxy for fingerboard joints because it doesn't add moisture to the wood which can cause unwanted movement. It is not inconvenient if you are use to it. And it does nothing to harm future repairs as it allows quite easy disassembly with added heat.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:02 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:04 pm
Posts: 295
First name: Mike
Last Name: Vallandigham
City: Martinez
State: CA
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but it is a good one!

I need to glue a shim (thick one, like 0.100") on to one side of a dovetail tenon, as I screwed up cutting it and went to far...had the jig set full one way, when it should have been full the other. Oh well, the guitar if for me, and only my fourth, lesson learned. Were this for someone else, I'd probably build a new neck...might still.

Anyhow, I was thinking that a waterproof glue would be good for ensuring that the thick shim stayed put if the dovetail was ever disassembled with steam. Normally, I'm a hide glue user, and I know TBII and TBIII are not really for building instruments.

My two options are (1) glue the shim in with hide glue, finish shaping the dovetail, and let the shim come off when the neck is steamed off
or (2) try TBII or III so that the shim would remain in place after a neck removal. If the shim ever needed to be removed, one could just route or chisel it off.

My only concern is cold creep, as this would be a stressed joint. But the shim would be sandwiched in the dovetail, not sure where it could really creep to...

This may be one more place where TBII or III might be useful.

Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:05 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 2764
First name: Tom
Last Name: West
State: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Mickey: Most likely the only reason the neck will come off is to do a reset which will require new shims anyway..............!!!
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:30 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:04 pm
Posts: 295
First name: Mike
Last Name: Vallandigham
City: Martinez
State: CA
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Yeah, but I really screwed it up when routing the dovetail. I had the template slid the wrong way, and I cut one side before I realized it. So one side is still oversized, but the side I cut is a good bit undersized. So I want to build the bad side back up with a hunk of wood, then re-route the dovetail.
It's this piece I'd like to have glued permanently. I still might end up with a traditionl thin shim when I glue the neck in.

But I do see what you're saying. Maybe I'm worried about it too much...like usual.

Thanks Tom!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com