Official Luthiers Forum!

It's been almost two years since the last thread that I'm aware of that discussed how the General Finishes Endurovar II was working for people and some people were trying out the High Peformance Topcoat finish as an alternative.

Results for Endurovar II were mixed. It was working fine for some people, but there was an early report of adhesion problems from Woodie G and some people were seeing witness lines when doing the final sanding of the finish, although those seemed to buff out.

I've run up against the shelf life limit of my last gallon of the original Endurovar so I want to decide whether to move on to Endurovar II or give the High Performance Topcoat a shot.

Do any of you have more recent experience with either or both of those finishes that you can share? Thanks.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Not sure if I posted in the one you're talking about, but I really liked the original Endurovar.
I tried the Endurovar ii and we didn't get on at all, not the same animal.
Then the Topcoat, well it was OK (ish) but I'm still hunting for something better.
I've been using Osmo PolyX for neck, back and sides and GluBoost Fill 'n finish for soundboards.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I used and liked the original Endurovar until it was discontinued and have been using the High Performance Topcoat with no issues since. I actually had an opportunity to more closely A/B them, at least as far as application goes, on a single instrument started with the former and finished with the latter. Application seems about the same (hand-applied with a foam brush at 80 deg. F). Burn-in seems about the same and rubbing up seems about the same too (using Abralon on a small delta shaped sander).

It is unfortunate for us but it is highly likely that this product churn in the waterborne finishes market will continue, and that newer products will become less suitable for our purposes. The primary market for varnish is floor finishing. What that market wants is something as tough as polyurethane oil varnish but without the VOCs. Waterborne material, no matter who makes it and how they label and advertise it, is a coalescing finish made primarily from acrylic resin. Manufacturers would love to increase the polyurethane content to provide a tougher product, but the chemistry just doesn't work out. So they do the next best thing - add as much polyurethane as they can (which is currently not much) and just label the product as polyurethane. But of course for our purposes if they ever do up the polyurethane content significantly we are not going to be able to use the product, because polyurethane is too tough to rub out.

Grrr.

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R.M. Mottola
LiutaioMottola.com

Author of the books Building the Steel String Acoustic Guitar, Practical Design of the Acoustic Guitar and Similar Instruments, and Mottola's Cyclopedic Dictionary of Lutherie Terms.

I don't check in here very often. If you need to contact me the best bet is via email through the contact page on my site.

When I started with lutherie 20 years ago I was keen to benefit from the low VOCs and other stuff that waterborne finishes promised too and I even dabbled collecting the finishes and associated items such as a screen for one of the finishes that was promoted here on the OLF.

One by one they all had reported problems on the OLF. There were exceptions of course there always are. But to me even a failure rate of 5% was a non-starter.

After Rick Tuner RIP told me that I can build a great guitar but I am not **** unless I learn the repair side of the trade he also told me that guitars are "tools for musicians" and as such they need to stand up to the environment of the musician.

For the classical crowd your clients are not jumping up and down, sweating profusely, drooling single malt scotch on their upper bout or dodging thrown beer bottles. But if they were it would be very clear to you why nitro found a home in the trade long ago replacing French polished shellac in the steel string world. It would also become clear to you why some including Rick, Taylor, Mario P. and many others one upped nitro with a very tenacious poly finish.

All day long I see broken instruments brought to us by sad folks who want some help. We take in over 1,100 annually, I work on over 600 annually myself now working only mornings in semi-retirement. We have hundreds of gigging musicians as loyal clients including some pretty famous ones meaning A listers.

The last time I saw a guitar with a waterborne finish it was a OLFer who we did not even want to take it in. This was a year ago too...... We turn away over 60% of what comes our way for bandwidth and one other major reason, lack of serviceability by the builder or the design of the instrument. If it was never intended to be serviced we won't attempt to service it with a dowelled or pinned neck joint a common example of this.

With all the guitars we see waterborne finishes are very rare and few and far between. This makes me remember all the debacles on the OLf such as Hard Shellac that wasn't.... and crazed to beat the band, pardon the pun with temp swings and the contraction and expansion of the thin wood plates that we use.

Guitars are not floors and if I were producing steel string instruments I would consider a waterborne finish a liability that will not stand up to the environment of a giggling musician, or a teenager.... or, or, or....

Again the classical crowd have a different environment and I can see the use of waterborne finishes for an instrument owned, played and cared for well by an adult steward.

If it were me and it was once Mario when Mario P developed an allergy for nitro Mario did not look to waterborne or French polished shellac he knew his market of bluegrass players. Mario went to Rick Turner and one of the most beautiful exchanges that ever occurred on the OLF happened.

Step by step over a month's time Rick turned Mario on, two of the greats who ever participated here to how to set-up for and use Poly. In the process Joe White finisher extraordinaire also learned from Rick and then Mario how to shoot poly and has finished hundreds, perhaps thousands of guitars with poly since then.

Mario saw his allergy as an opportunity to improve the finish on his wares. Maybe that's what finding a lack of commitment with waterborne suppliers to lutherie should be viewed as too, an opportunity.

Might be time to step up to the world of more traditionally accepted guitar finishes enjoying the strength in numbers and the benefits of some pull with manufacturers and products with wide industry acceptance. We are not building floors.

That's what I would be doing I would be exploring upping the value of my instruments by providing a more durable, serviceable finish.

I didn't ask for anyone's opinion about waterborne finishes in general.

I asked for firsthand experience anyone here may have with Endurovar II or High Performance Topcoat.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Three very experienced luthiers if I do say so myself were generous with you and you got defensive like a whiney little b*tch.....

I don't require you to ask me for me to comment. Please make a note of it.

Maybe as I said... this is an opportunity for you to consider using a real, suitable lutherie finish better suited for how people use and treat guitars.

You're welcome by the way De Rocher.

I don't require your self-important opinion I didn't ask for. Arrogant a**hole.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Well actually you did ask for my opinion by posting your questions in the open forum, De Rocher. Should I write a new tootorial for the OLF on how to be a decent human being without subjecting the entire forum to personal hostilities??? No need to thank me.

When we post a question in the open forums of the OLF unless you pull your head out of your can of waterborne finish and take a break from playing Luthier for a few minutes you should know by now that anyone may answer. But you got your panties, size XXXXL in a bunch over it.

By the way I have been wanting to ask you since you sell your guitars are you willing to do what you repeatedly berated Lance to do and open your business books to prospective customers? Seems like what was good in your opinion for Lance should be good for little, ole you, no?

Also have you considered some form of sex lubricant (I read it comes in waterborne too......) as a finish so you might enjoy shoving your guitars up your arse? No need to thank me for the visual.

Thanks for showing everyone here who you really are. Pathetic.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

There it is the "thanks" that you should have offered to three of us in the first place. You're welcome.

It's not about who I really am, dildo I have over 40,000 posts here with countless people helped that I think permits me to have a bad day maybe once in nearly 20 years here. None of us including me have license to break the few forum rules though and this especially includes me. Nonetheless you are correct I am wrong to expose others here to the hostilities that I feel toward a poser like you and only you, De Rocher.

Well I lied there is one other..... tick, tick, tick....

Most of all though the gloves are off from now on as far as I am concerned. Disrespect me and take your chances. I have decided that it's time to be honest with the fakes, phonies and posers so expect to see free range Hesh from now on. Feels great too!!!

To everyone else my sincere apologies you do know this is not who I am. Many of you know me personally. I just get very fed up with these self-absorbed jerks who come here, suck all the information they can from us, never provide any attribution (or thanks) when then passing on the information and who think they are luthiers because they can build, maybe.... a guitar.

Back to De Rocher.... so did you try my idea about using waterborne sex lube as a guitar finish? I just shared this with several working in the trade luthiers, you know the real deal guys (meaning men and women) and they were rolling on the floor laughing.

We are refinishing the back of a rather nicely made custom classical guitar after a botched crack and touch-up job by another shop. Given the regrettable changes that General Finishes made to Endurovar, we have gone to High Performance for area refinish of polyurethanes. We have found that High Performance - a high wear area floor finish - is exceptionally durable whether sprayed or brushed on. Adequate cure time is essential, as is allowing the film thickness to be such that the surface can be sanded back to smooth prior to buffing.

Ahem, gentlemen...

Manners maketh man. That does not mean that the pinky finger must be held just so when sipping tea, but rather that behavior follows belief, and manners are simply belief manifested in action. If one holds that all humans have inherent value, one's mannered interactions with others testify to that belief. If one acts the clodpate in conversation, that too is a form of testimonial.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Manners

Left throw bolt shoved up and locked

Maketh

Right throwbolt thrown and locked

Man

Deadbolt thrown

Then a can of whoopass is opened up....