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 Post subject: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:33 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 336
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I only have two power dust makers: a band saw that I don't use much, and a lathe that I use to make pegs and sometimes gifts. I have a shop vac with a barrel to catch the big chips for that, and for cleaning the bench and floor when I'm done. The chute and hose doesn't catch everything, but some of it anyway. But the basement is STILL full of dust.

It doesn't usually bother me. Ebony, and rosewood smell kind of nice. P O Cedar is strong, and clears your nose out, but it isn't bad. A Yellow Cedar isn't nearly as strong. Spruce, maple, walnut, cherry? They don't bother me either.

The other day I cut a 2 X 4 piece of 1/2 ply in half, and the other half into 8 strips to make the top of a go-bar deck. Short work with my large Ryoba saw. Mostly big chips. Then I cut two 2 foot long 2 X 4's in half lengthwise, and two more into 4's lengthwise, for the posts, and braces. It didn't take long at all. I planed two edges of the braces flat and square.

Three days later, and my nose is still plugged up, and I get the back of the neck headache.

I'm thinking of getting the small Jet air purifier. On high it would cycle the air in the basement about 7 times. There is a WEN one too that is the same size, for about $40 less, the Jet is on sale now at Rockler.

I know that they only work on suspended dust, but that is probably the problem. Cleaning up after is one thing, but it is during the doing that is bad. I had a n95 mask, but I don't know where it went. I bought it because I hate the regular masks. Fog your glasses up. It is hard to breath with them on. For heavy sawing I could use something like a mask, but if the box would clean the air up, I could take the dumb thing off sooner. Put it on high when doing heavy work to clean the air up. Lower when doing other things.

Any of you guys use something like these?

What is it about plywood or 2 X 4's?

Thanks,

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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:50 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 1365
Location: United States
As was pointe out to me, these devices do not protect you much while you are working on the machines or sanding. You need to wear a mask.



These users thanked the author wbergman for the post: Kbore (Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:03 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:05 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 2447
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
Most wood workers agree that dust collection at the source (right at the tool) is more effective. The air filter will clear the air but that may take a couple of hours before it's good so you are breathing dirty air in the mean time.


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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:44 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 4872
Location: Virginia
A room dust collector is not enough. I use one of these and it works amazingly well at the point source.

https://www.clearvuecyclones.com/home/1 ... ystem.html

But even with that I should wear a mask. I don't always do but should.

Look at it this way, if you can smell it then you are breathing it in and that's probably the real fine partials which is the worst for your health.


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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:08 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 6056
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
My shop is 15' x 20' and I have one of the large Jet air filtration systems mounted from the ceiling in the middle of the shop. It does make a difference but the dust collector does the heavy lifting.

Over the years (I got my first carpentry job in '76) I've learned a few things about taking care of myself while working in the shop.
1. Wear a good mask. At a minimum a decent disposable mask.
2. The air filtration system is certainly helpful but not a solution by itself.
3. I know they're pricey but a good cyclone type dust collector hooked to a decent dust collection system is the heart of the system. My dust collection system is the most expensive 'tool' I have.

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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:34 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 336
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
My point of source one on the saw just doesn't collect everything at the source. It should be right under the table at the blade, but it isn't. Just the design of the saw. But I really don't use it much. I do things almost completely by hand, so everything is just dust from hand saws, planes, chisels, and scrapers.

A violin maker has a smaller 400 cfm WEN unit that he places right on his bench where he is working; not really as a room filter. He uses fans too. Use a fan to blow it toward the unit, away from you? At least that would trap the stuff, and not just send it flying around.

I agree that it is the small stuff, so a breeze would help collect it. Maybe even use the vac when I'm using the hand saw, placing the hose on the top of the wood? It would clear the line so I could see where I'm cutting, and pick up the light stuff that is floating.

I don't do a lot of sanding, but scraping is just as bad for dust. Some wood just makes dust when you scrape it. The Padauk I just did made chips, but the Sitka only wanted to make dust.

Maybe the small unit would be something to try? Use it like a point of source dust filter, not chip vac.

Yeah, I should get a mask.

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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:50 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm
Posts: 1885
First name: Jay
Last Name: De Rocher
City: Bothell
State: Washington
I have a ceiling-mounted Jet system (1000 CFM) in my shop which is about 20' x 24' with a 10' ceiling. It makes a big difference and I have numbers to back it up which you can see here: https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=51532&hilit=wynn

I use it in combination with collection at the source with my shop vac (with a HEPA filter) pulling through a Dust Deputy for my thickness sander, belt sander, and band saw. It's quite effective, but if I was sanding/cutting highly allergenic woods like cocobolo, I would wear a mask in addition.

My Jet is positioned so that when I'm standing at my island bench, the air flows from behind me and across the bench top away from me. That helps a lot when doing a lot of hand sanding as most of the fine dust blows away from me and up to the Jet's intake side. I still wear a mask though when doing a lot of hand sanding especially when level sanding epoxy pore filler or finish.

If I was in the shop creating dust all day every day I would want a more elaborate system, but for my current needs my setup is plenty effective.

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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:50 pm
Posts: 1895
Location: Seattle WA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
A multi-pronged approach is probably best. I believe you should always finish with a HEPA filter. I have a 400 CFM true HEPA (Austin Air) that I use on the clean side of my shop. But even having a small one that you can leave running most the time is a smart move. The tiniest particles that you can't see or smell are the worst for your lungs.

Pat

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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:49 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 4498
It may not be the dust that is bothering you. If you were cutting plywood it might be the glue they used to stick it together with. Often they use formaldehyde in it.
From the net:
"Formaldehyde is a colorless, strong-smelling gas used in making building materials and many household products. It is used in pressed-wood products, such as particleboard, plywood, and fiberboard; glues and adhesives; permanent-press fabrics; paper product coatings; and certain insulation materials."

You may be better off in spending a little bit of money for a respirator with charcoal filters for VOCs. It will also help with "finish pollution".
If you are using a handsaw, buy or make a couple of sawhorses and work al fresco when cutting plywoods and other sheet goods (particle board is another culprit).


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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:13 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:29 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Markham, ON (Canada)
First name: Charlton
Last Name: Wang
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I built one of those Jay Bates air cleaners with a throw-away furnace fan and I should have built it as one of my first woodworking projects long ago because it's incredible how quickly it scrubs the air and helps to keep the shop clean (especially after routing MDF).


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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:52 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 336
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Clay, it could be that. I was glad when they got.an electric forklift for the toolroom. The smell of those drives me.crazy. When they run too much I have to leave. I get terrible headaches starting at my neck when I would pick up people at the airport. Cars are.even way better now as far as smell that makes you sick goes.

Turpentine doesn't usually bother me, smells fresh, but spray paint? That's nasty. I don't use it.

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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:26 pm
Posts: 269
First name: Carl
Last Name: Dickinson
City: Forest Ranch
State: California
Zip/Postal Code: 95942
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I've had two 20" box fans hanging from the ceiling with furnace filters taped to them for a while now. Seems to be working well beyond on dust collection only (3hp cyclone system). Filters are merv 11 now, but going up to merv 13 on the next change.
I bought a Dylos counter on eBay. Delivery was to be 10/1, but it's hung up in fedex somewhere. I'll be interested checking the fans' efficiency....... if it ever gets here. gaah



These users thanked the author CarlD for the post: Pmaj7 (Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:42 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Shop air purifiers
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:03 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 1365
Location: United States
I am allergic to the whole world. Over the years I found out a few things.

My asthma used to be terrible, but now it is barely, if ever, present. When my asthma was bad, many fragrances would set it off, without particles. Allergists refer to a response called Twitchy Lung. For example, at work if I walked by a lady wearing perfume or hairspray I would have an attack. The fragrances were not things I was allergic to. I could not walk through the detergent aisle in the grocery store because of the fragrance. Chemicals absorbed through the skin on my hands might set off an attack. Not sure if absorbed or inhaled, but for a while I could not gas up the car, so my wife had to do that.

I was tested by a clinical ecologist, and found that arthritis on one hand joint and severe headaches were set off by automobile exhaust, but not diesel exhaust. After the test, I realized that the hand pain started after I bought a new car and then only after driving for more than two hours, even though I learned to drive barely using that hand. That car must have had an exhaust leak into the passenger compartment.

Epoxy absorbed through my hands can have many bad effects. Most recently, I immediately got the worst stuffy, running nose I ever had and it lasted three weeks. As a child, I had even more severe reactions. So no more epoxy.

More insidious to all of us is the damage to lungs and sinuses, including cancer, caused by particles. Medical professionals even have separate names for the damage observed by different dusts. I have seen reference to specific lung disease for a mold that grows in maple bark that lumber mill employees get and for dust from redwood and mahogany that wood workers get. Then we have all seen the posts here regarding various species of guitar wood that people react to.

So, be careful out there.



These users thanked the author wbergman for the post: Michaeldc (Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:50 am)
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