Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:10 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Brace shape
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:24 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:58 pm
Posts: 1326
First name: Ed
Last Name: Minch
City: Chestertown
State: MD
Zip/Postal Code: 21620
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I am on #9 and have been using a Gibson brace shape/profile. I have been making the angled sides with a hand plane before gluing them on, and they come out fine, but there has to be a better way. I have not figured out a good jig for a table saw, and the one I tried for the bandsaw does not have enough accuracy. Someone posted a cool router jig that they use after the braces are installed, but that is a bit elaborate for the number of instruments I make.

Does anyone have a good jig for shaping braces before installing them?


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:27 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 am
Posts: 4246
Location: Central PA
First name: john
Last Name: hall
City: Hegins
State: pa
Zip/Postal Code: 17938
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I do mine on the table saw use a zero clearance and feather boards

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Member Board of Directors ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:35 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 1988
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
The Gore book has a super easy one to make that uses a router and chamfer bit. Do you have access to the book?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
"Is this the one where I trot downfield and act like I'm lost ?" - Billy Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:43 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:43 am
Posts: 1267
I put a radius on the bottom first, then hog w a bandsaw then a spindle sander you get closer... BUT... I fish shaping them w planes and chisels after they are glued to give me more flexibility in how the top moves after it’s all said and done



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:07 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:45 pm
Posts: 1061
First name: Michael
Last Name: Colbert
City: Anacortes
State: WA
Focus: Build
Here’s how I preprofile my braces. Mind you I’m cutting 100+ pieces at a time which is enough for at least a dozen guitars.

https://youtu.be/C_5q7PEd-jQ



These users thanked the author Michaeldc for the post: Michael Lloyd (Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:25 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:44 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 4354
Here is a pair of jigs you can make for a table saw to angle the sides of braces. I made one for cutting the "angle" portion on traditional kerfed linings (the off fall I use for tentalones). They are just blocks of wood that can be clamped to the tablesaw fence that have slots cut in them to feed the stock through into the angled saw blade.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.



These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: TimAllen (Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:14 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:46 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm
Posts: 1845
First name: Jay
Last Name: De Rocher
City: Bothell
State: Washington
I was doing the initial shaping of some of my braces using my drum sander with a complicated version of how Michael does it. Once I saw his method, I stole it and adapted it for the drum sander. (Thanks, Michael.) I made a carrier for the brace blanks with two angled channels on it that rides the feed belt through the sander. A brace blank goes in the channel on the left and goes through the sander. Flip the brace end for end and put it in the channel on the right and back through the sander.

Attachment:
Brace profiling jig.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter



These users thanked the author J De Rocher for the post: Michaeldc (Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:16 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:45 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 4797
Location: Virginia
Don't you end up carving a profile on the braces anyway once they are glued down based on stiffness testing or tap tones or shamanic visions? Does this method just sort of give you a head start on that process?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:54 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 10:32 am
Posts: 2614
First name: alan
Last Name: stassforth
City: Santa Rosa
State: ca
Zip/Postal Code: 95404
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
jfmckenna wrote:
Don't you end up carving a profile on the braces anyway once they are glued down based on stiffness testing or tap tones or shamanic visions? Does this method just sort of give you a head start on that process?


Yes. I don't know how one would glue a pointed brace on.
Sharp chisel, favorite part of the build for me.
Alan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:25 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:58 pm
Posts: 1326
First name: Ed
Last Name: Minch
City: Chestertown
State: MD
Zip/Postal Code: 21620
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Everyone - thanks for the good ideas

Alan

I agree that shaping is a fun part for sure - I am just getting a head start on it. I use little blocks with a "V" cut in them that fit over the top of the braces

Ed


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:36 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:45 pm
Posts: 1061
First name: Michael
Last Name: Colbert
City: Anacortes
State: WA
Focus: Build
This is how I clamp pre-profiled braces.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:40 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:12 pm
Posts: 2987
First name: Bryan
Last Name: Bear
City: St. Louis
State: Mo
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Are you all doing this to the x braces too? How do you handle the intersection of the x where there shouldn't be gaps between the two braces? I haven't figured out a good way to preshape these braces. I fit the x lap joint on the squared stock, glue them down and cap the lap all before I start to profile them so I can get a decent transition from squared to profiled. I'd love to know what you all are doing.

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:54 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:45 pm
Posts: 1061
First name: Michael
Last Name: Colbert
City: Anacortes
State: WA
Focus: Build
I clamp my X-brace like this.
Attachment:
87A9CC89-B25E-4675-813A-C2B741968AF6.jpeg


Then I profile the x-brace with this router jig.
Attachment:
BC7AF717-DDD3-403C-AE08-933BCFCDEB24.jpeg
Attachment:
B20AEBD5-D42E-4C64-BABA-13BBD5D6C534.jpeg


5 minutes later it looks like this.
Attachment:
87EAA31E-DE43-464E-8050-1C805CD5900E.jpeg


Best, M


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.



These users thanked the author Michaeldc for the post (total 4): Michael Lloyd (Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:31 pm) • SmilinBuddha (Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:00 am) • Glen H (Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:13 pm) • JimWomack (Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:05 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:12 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm
Posts: 1845
First name: Jay
Last Name: De Rocher
City: Bothell
State: Washington
In my case, I pre-profile the upper face brace, the tone bars, the sound hole braces and the upper two braces on the back. All the other braces get profiled and shaped with a chisel after they are glued on. I use vacuum clamping so gluing the profiled braces on isn't a problem.

jfmckenna - Of the braces listed above, only the tonebars benefit from shamanic visions. They get added attention after they are glued on. The main thing done to the other pre-profiled braces is carving the ends down to tuck into the lining. So, yes pre-profiling those braces on the drum sander gives a head start and its possible to prepare lot of them fairly quickly. Not as quickly as with Michael's set up though.

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:36 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 5980
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
I took Kent Everett's voicing class five years ago and he leaves the braces on the top flat and just sands them smooth when he's done voicing. I've been doing the same ever since. Not to poke holes at those that want parabolic or triangular shaped top braces (I did that too for over 10 years) but just wanted to make the point that you can leave them rectangular in cross section and they work just as well. Of course I do shape my back braces since they can be seen through the sound hole, rectangular back braces are glued on then shaped with a chisel, plane and sandpaper. Just another option.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:37 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:00 pm
Posts: 63
First name: Terry
SnowManSnow wrote:
I put a radius on the bottom first, then hog w a bandsaw then a spindle sander you get closer... BUT... I fish shaping them w planes and chisels after they are glued to give me more flexibility in how the top moves after it’s all said and done

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Same... ^^^^


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:08 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:45 pm
Posts: 1061
First name: Michael
Last Name: Colbert
City: Anacortes
State: WA
Focus: Build
SteveSmith wrote:
I took Kent Everett's voicing class five years ago and he leaves the braces on the top flat and just sands them smooth when he's done voicing. I've been doing the same ever since. Not to poke holes at those that want parabolic or triangular shaped top braces (I did that too for over 10 years) but just wanted to make the point that you can leave them rectangular in cross section and they work just as well. Of course I do shape my back braces since they can be seen through the sound hole, rectangular back braces are glued on then shaped with a chisel, plane and sandpaper. Just another option.


Yeah - in Somogyi’s voicing workshop which I attended in 2012, he was profiling his braces in a ‘Eiffel Tower’ shape. There was no way in h*ll I was gonna spend the time to do that, so I settled on this approach. It doesn’t really take me any extra time, and it removes a bit of mass so I’ll likely stick with it.

Best


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:53 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 6061
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I wonder if you could get the Eiffel Tower shape with a different bit?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:24 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 5980
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
Michaeldc wrote:
SteveSmith wrote:
I took Kent Everett's voicing class five years ago and he leaves the braces on the top flat and just sands them smooth when he's done voicing. I've been doing the same ever since. Not to poke holes at those that want parabolic or triangular shaped top braces (I did that too for over 10 years) but just wanted to make the point that you can leave them rectangular in cross section and they work just as well. Of course I do shape my back braces since they can be seen through the sound hole, rectangular back braces are glued on then shaped with a chisel, plane and sandpaper. Just another option.


Yeah - in Somogyi’s voicing workshop which I attended in 2012, he was profiling his braces in a ‘Eiffel Tower’ shape. There was no way in h*ll I was gonna spend the time to do that, so I settled on this approach. It doesn’t really take me any extra time, and it removes a bit of mass so I’ll likely stick with it.

Best


Michael, that is a very nice profiling jig you've got there.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"



These users thanked the author SteveSmith for the post: Michaeldc (Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:54 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:33 pm 
Online
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3190
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
meddlingfool wrote:
I wonder if you could get the Eiffel Tower shape with a different bit?

Indeed, a fairly large diameter ball nose bit would make a nice shape, like this:
Attachment:
BraceProfile.png

Although it's really not enough weight to matter on 5/16" braces.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:55 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 4354
meddlingfool wrote:
I wonder if you could get the Eiffel Tower shape with a different bit?



You could probably do it by using a cove or panel raising bit and making a couple of jigs to hold the work and select out the section you want to use.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Brace shape
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:52 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:45 pm
Posts: 1061
First name: Michael
Last Name: Colbert
City: Anacortes
State: WA
Focus: Build
meddlingfool wrote:
I wonder if you could get the Eiffel Tower shape with a different bit?


Yes, It's absolutely possible but not really worth the effort IMO. I think for Ervin it was an opportunity to show off his skill.

Cheers, M



These users thanked the author Michaeldc for the post: meddlingfool (Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:43 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Chris Ensor, Colin North, DennisK and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com