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 Post subject: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:06 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I know that means a lot more then my rant which will follow. It means perfect joints, a rosette with no burrs along the purfling, binding that is the same thickness all way round and so on. Important stuff

But I am talking about the inside of the guitar here. Something that has kind of bothered me since I read C&N's book some time around 1994. They clean up all the braces with 100/150/220 paper and smooth out all the chisel marks.

Why?

I like chisel marks it shows the hand of the maker. Is there actually anyone who would argue a tonal benefit from such a practice?

Further, glue squeeze out. I can totally understand cleaning up gobs of glue and even those little beads that form, and are so easy to remove, but what about that fine glue line that forms along the bracing for example? I see pics here and on other forums and the commenters are always astonished about the 'clean work.'

I would think that a nice glue line along the bracing would actually protect it from where the moisture would first start to enter the glue joint.

Anyway, I do all this stuff too. I try my best to do 'Clean Work...' But I really don't know why. IDK if any of you follow the Luthiers Club on Facebook but this is why I am ranting about this. Some dude fired his young apprentice becasue he suggested that the way the inside of the guitar looks is not important.... I agree with the kid, and again, to a point.

It's hard enough to make the darn things sound good and heck it's hard enough to make them look good on the outside. So what's all the fuss?
.

[/rant] :D


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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:41 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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First name: Bryan
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I think I am probably close to where you are in my opinion of what matters and what doesn’t. I too try to keep things nearer than needed. For me, it is more a matter of my effort and attitude toward the project. I’m a hobbiest so time is not an issue for me and I don’t really need more guitars. For me, a large part of the undertaking is about the process and my own mental health. It reminds me that (in this small portion of my life) the goal is not just deadlines and results. I am forcing myself to focus on the here and Now and to slow down (something that has gotten more difficult for me I the rest of my life).

Also, I like seeing super clean work that others do, not because I think it matters to the tone or anything like that. I like to see how well others can do to give me inspiration to improve my process.

All this is not to say that I don’t accept and even embrace the flaws in my work. I do my best and find pride in that. I like seeing old efforts and noticing how my expectations for my own work have evolved over time.

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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:10 am 
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I think the perception, of the buying public anyway, is that the care taken with the details inside reflects the care taken in building the guitar in general, at least for custom/luthier builds.
Yet the guitar buying pubic lap up the "mysteeke" of some of the big name f*cktory builds,(you know who you are) and when you see them inside they can be absolute kack.
Mind you, Torres' guitars have saw marks on the bracing and glue dribbling inside, linings kerfed with a set of crimps etc. so I'm not going to argue for any sonic differences, although there may well be some.
Having said that, I have no intentions of lowering the bar on my inside detailing to less than something reasonably clean and tidy - It's just the way I'm made, I can't do otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:20 am 
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Koa
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I've been working with hide glue for a couple current builds which opens up a whole new can of worms with regard to cleanliness inside the box (pun intended). One aspect of paying close attention to cleanup is that I spot minor issues that can be addressed right then and more easily than if the box is closed. Another aspect of paying close attention to cleanup is that I spot minor issues that must be addressed right then at all costs or I cannot move on with my life, let alone the guitar build. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:32 am 
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The state of the inside of the guitar is an area where, as a learning hobbyist, I am currently giving myself some slack. I will get better over time, but for right now, I am focusing more on things I find to be more important. If/when I get serious about trying to sell some of these darn things, I will circle back and get pickier about what the inside looks like.


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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:41 am 
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I do clean work because I believe it represents my aspiration to be both a craftsman and an artist.

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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:42 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Colin North wrote:
I think the perception, of the buying public anyway, is that the care taken with the details inside reflects the care taken in building the guitar in general, at least for custom/luthier builds.


True that and if you plan on selling your creations you will be judged by what clients can readily see and this means neatness..... It's not even so much the joinery or the woodworking but things like glossy finishes, cool rosettes and sexy cut-aways. So what if the buyer still can't play, lots of folks like to compensate for all manner of things with their GAS (guitar acquisition syndrome).

Sadly.... neatness has nothing to do with the quality of a musical instrument. Some of the most valuable and iconic guitars ever produced have visible saw marks, HHG snot globs and even these days cracks and evidence of prior repairs.

We have one client who watched us make a nut on his guitar and he almost fainted and had to sit down.... True story. He had no idea that sharp, metal files would get within the same town as a proper guitar.... Go figure. Don't get me wrong I would put the neatness of our work against anyone, anyone.... but on the way we make dust and shavings.

My take on the neatness thing since Lance and I used to compete for who was more anal about the insides of our boxes (Lance always won but mine are pretty clean too) is that until you have a name for yourself AND if you want to go commercial better be neat.... Once you are the greatest builder in your region and command over $15K a box you can be a slob. ;)

The one disappointment that I have and I'm really kidding here with the new line of fantastic Waterloo instruments is that the insides of the boxes of the Kalamazoos that they recreate were very sloppy and the Waterloos are not. But hey the Waterloos are so superior in so many other ways, build quality, tone woods, finish, etc that who cares. I may end up purchasing a f*ctory guitar and it will be a Waterloo, I really like them! I've got my eye on the recreations of black KG-11's.



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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:36 pm 
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I tend toward the clean as possible end of the spectrum on the inside of my guitars. I know that it's extremely unlikely that anyone will see anything beyond what can be seen by looking through the sound hole, but I know what it looks like and it's just a point of personal pride for me to have the inside almost as clean as the outside. For me, practicing clean building on the inside carries through to clean building on the outside because it becomes a habit and a single standard that applies to the whole guitar.


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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:50 pm 
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I find that the difference between tidy and untidy usually boils down to about 20-30 minutes.
Most people won't notice tidy, but they sure as heck will notice untidy!

Alex

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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:17 pm 
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If you don't your friends might laugh and point fingers at you.



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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Cocobolo
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You know, being a new builder (only 5 ) I’m beginning to really care a LOT more about the inside. For me.... it is more about knowing everything is as perfect as I can make it. Does this mean it is actually perfect? Well, of course not... but I feel like I have to do the very best I can on every single cut and glue joint. That said... I still find places LOTS of places for LOTS of improvement... so I try again... and again


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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:17 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I do like the point made that cleaning up allows you close inspection of your work, point well taken. I race bikes too which means lots of ride time and miles and have always been told to clean the bike up really good. Well, I got a Titanium bike so I would not have to worry about road grime :D But the point was that in doing so you might just notice a frayed brake cable that will save your life.


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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:12 am 
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I was just thinking about this two days ago while prepping to close a box and went ahead and cleaned it up anyway. I think it comes down to pride in my work and showing my developing skills. The underside of my soundboards look better now than they typically did in the past and it takes me less time to get them that way because my skill and neatness as a builder has increased, so it is nice to see that progression.

And just as with any trade keeping what won't be seen neat implies caring about what you do and trying to do it right. When doing home renovations I "judge" the previous plumber or electrician or carpenter by what I find behind the walls, seeing neat work gives me confidence in their ability and desire to build it right, sloppy works makes me wonder what else might be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:08 am 
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And just as with any trade keeping what won't be seen neat implies caring about what you do and trying to do it right. When doing home renovations I "judge" the previous plumber or electrician or carpenter by what I find behind the walls, seeing neat work gives me confidence in their ability and desire to build it right, sloppy works makes me wonder what else might be wrong.[/quote]

Exactly!

I always found that doing neat work saved time and money in the end. Take the time to get the footings in exactly right (+/- 1/16" and square) and the rest of the job is easy.

Historic restoration contractor, 34 years, retired.



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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:21 am 
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If you put a soundport in, the player can look right down into the guitar very easily, making it necessary for the inside to be visually pleasing. I have even seen where builders have put little surprises on the inside, like, inlays and words. I think that is kinda cool and I'd like to try that, if I could think of something clever. The other thing, is that some builders will use exotic woods on the inside to enhance the inside...

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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:12 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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I get laughed at a lot here because I am so very neat that I put things away, tools, etc. often before I should and then I have to do get them again.... gaah :? :D

Did I ever tell the story of the time Dave ep*xied a quarter to the floor and I saw it...... :D It took a while but I got it off the floor.... laughing6-hehe Yet another reason for reversible, serviceable glues....


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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:19 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I like to remember Tim Olsen's comments on Robert Lundberg:
"With delight and conviction he shares discoveries relating to methods of work and the social and musical forces that shaped the golden age of the lute.This enduring joy springs from his attitude that the goal of lutherie is not the perfection of instruments, but the perfection of the luthier. As we spoke of the need for instrument makers to adopt the attitude of the Renaissance and Baroque makers that a master's quick and sure work is good enough and need not be a task of belabored and picky technical perfection, a customer arrived with Lundberg's latest instrument, a chittarrone resplendent in ebony and ivory. Clearly this was wrought by human hand, and not laser beams. The spontaneity of the "Knot of Leonardo" nicely complimented the variation and splotchiness of the slightly figured and undyed ebony And when the smiling owner strapped on the five foot long instrument, at once elegant and bizarre, the music completed the concept exactly.The sound was neither loud nor showy, but rich, cool and clear.Here was an instrument on precisely a human scale,integrated and satisfying in every aspect.
Robert Lundberg's work is excellent and inspiring. But more than that, it is good enough.



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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Hesh wrote:
I get laughed at a lot here because I am so very neat that I put things away, tools, etc. often before I should and then I have to do get them again.... gaah :? :D

Did I ever tell the story of the time Dave ep*xied a quarter to the floor and I saw it...... :D It took a while but I got it off the floor.... laughing6-hehe Yet another reason for reversible, serviceable glues....

He better not touch your red Swingline stapler! [WINKING FACE]


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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:35 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I find that working clean to start with ends up going a lot faster than having to go back and clean stuff up after the fact. Wood glue cleans up really easily when it's still wet.. Once its dry it's a PITA that ends up causing tearout and destroyed sanding belt....

Now - I don't go crazy on the inside.. I want it clean, neat, tidy, and "workmanlike".... But you will find evidence of hand work inside my guitars.


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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:59 pm 
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I don’t give a rat’s behind how slick the interior is. 180 grit is fine by me.

But I do care about the tightness of the joints.

I want the braces to snug into the sides with a next-to-invisible joint. I think that’s just a sign of doing good, tight work.

I don’t always hit it, but I sure do aspire to it.

I think that kind of work is what separates the serious folks from the wannabes.

More and more, I’m coming to see guitar making as a discipline. Or a practice. That’s putting it into yoga/meditative/hoo-hoo terms. You pick.

But it takes thought, commitment, and intention.

And it takes all of those squared to do it really well.

Forgive the rant

Steve.



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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:07 pm 
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One more point, and I’m not sure I agree with it, but I kinda think I do.

“You can’t turn quality on and off.”

Kent Carlos Everett.

Steve



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 Post subject: Clean Work
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:11 pm 
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I don't know if quality work is as binary as on or off. I can certainly increase the attention to detail I give things.

I recently installed some car audio equipment in my car. When it comes to wiring things in cars, my standard of detail is my father in-law, a retired Command Masterchief in the Navy. He was an AT, (aviation electronics technician), specializing in F-18's. There were things I did to make him proud and to honor what he's taught me. All my wiring, for example, had wire ferrules at both ends, finished in heat shrink. I ran all the speaker wire through a nylon mesh loom called TechFlex down one side, all the power wiring down the other. Where I crimped things, my crimps were done a certain way. But I didn't make an amp board or anything like that. My amp and signal processor are screwed to the sides of the subwoofer box because it's perfectly functional. But if I were paying someone $100 an hour to do it for me, I wouldn't want to see that. Some of the adhesive I used got on the speaker box carpet. I don't care because it doesn't effect anything, but if I paid to have it made, I'd be ticked.

That's one of the major points of consideration: what would a customer want to see? A friend who has a number of high-end handmade guitars wants and expects those extra details because, I mean, he's paying a lot of money. And when the guitars don't have them, he feels a little jipped.

So for me? I have no plans on selling a guitar. It's an outlet for me, not a business. I care about taking care of some things, less so others.


Last edited by James Orr on Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:49 am 
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I read about a luthier once who only cleaned up the inside parts that you could see through the sound hole.


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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:02 am 
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The cleanest instruments I see from Gibson's historic era (pre-Montana) are the Banners, which makes perfect sense if one has ever had the opportunity to compare the cleanliness of public restrooms for both sexes. It's not as though there was a sudden outbreak of excessive sandpaper and scraper use at Gibson between 1942 and 1946, but it seems to me that - given the gender roles of the time - the young women there avoided making the messes that life and their culture had conditioned them to expect to have to clean up.

The Banners I have seen are by no means 'clean' in the sense of the sort of the ballroom, polished floor perfection of some custom instrument interiors, but they are workmanlike in their attention to both joinery and finish, and - more importantly - lack the sort of carelessness or inattention seen in later instruments from that manufacturer.

I am certain that in repair work, all of the luthiers here have much the same standards - leave as little evidence of a repair as possible. For new work, the standard does seem to vary across builders, but the question asked in this shop when the topic comes up is: how much additional time does it take to ensure that the interior of a $5K-$10K luthier-built instrument looks as workmanlike as that of a $200 Chinese import?

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 Post subject: Re: Clean Work
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:34 pm 
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But seriously, when I started, my teacher taught us to make everything spotless and sand to at least 220 on the innards. Lately, I've tried to speed some of that up, but it's a hard habit to break (Even on a test mule I have to force myself to move along). Instead of doing more cleanup, which is a big drag, I execute my gluing better and have less to clean up. 180 is good for me too!

I don't mind working on the braces so much, but it's the cross grain plates that I've always found hard to clean up well. Such as butting a razor blade up to a back brace and scraping north to south to get rid of any east to west marks. Putting tape down goes a long way towards this. The inside of the backplate I strive to get perfect. The underside of the top....I get it pretty good.


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