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 Post subject: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:06 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:20 am
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Location: Powell River BC Canada
First name: Danny
Last Name: Vincent
Just wondering what the latest take is on a tie coat between Zpoxy and nitro. I read here years ago that shellac wasn't a good tie coat and that vinyl sealer was. I have come to believe that vinyl sealer is not great. I think I have read of recent some of you using shellac.

Anyone with lots of experience using shellac for this?

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:38 pm 
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Koa
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Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:03 am
Posts: 1737
Location: Litchfield MI
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Status: Professional
I have contacted "Pacer" regarding nitro compatibility, nitro can and should be applied directly to Zpoxy.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:19 pm 
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Koa
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First name: Willard
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City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
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Status: Semi-pro
Mr. Vincent:

We had this discussion with the boss over the weekend and I followed up today over lunch via text message. He could not recall whether the notes on the videos now reflect this approach, but I'll make those changes if not.

Here are the salient points of the discussion:

- With McFaddens/Seagraves instrument lacquer, the boss says vinyl sealer for the improvement in overall adhesion and resistance to shock - higher solids and less in the way of flex agents added, and their vinyl sealer is the best of the lot.

- With Mohawk, he feels it's a toss-up between platina shellac, vinyl sealer, and nude - Mohawk's vinyl sealer is not effective at cushioning shock and the lacquer is quite a bit softer than McFaddens with a better plasticiser package, so hangs on a bit better given a naked surface (I was unfamiliar with that term, but is apparently acceptable in what passes for polite company)

- Go with the finish manufacturer's suggestions on tie coat if you don't have some experience with the system. He suggests that he has not used Cardinal, but notes that he thinks it will be closer to McFaddens than Mohawk.

- Make sure the surface of the epoxy is well toothed and no amine blush, etc. remains on the instrument before either sealing or shooting finish coats.

- Accept that some people's chemistry will degrade nitro-to-epoxy bonds, no matter what the tie coat or lack of one. Shellac can help here, but the film thickness required means 2-3 full coats and care in sanding. He notes that this is usually only an issue on the neck, and there is more tolerance for the additional film thickness there than on the body.

I think I got that all - will check and see. Good luck, Mr. Vincent!

_________________
Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
– General George S. Patton Jr.


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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:47 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:04 pm
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First name: Andy
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I have used shellac in between (nitro and epoxy) for various reasons, as well as french polish over Zpoxy ... no issues thus far.

Woodie's boss ... yeah the dreaded amine blush ... good point.

Andy



These users thanked the author AndyB for the post: DannyV (Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:12 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:19 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:03 am
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Location: Litchfield MI
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Reading the email from "Pacer" -- the tech states that the solvents in nitro actually etch the Zpoxy so it forms a chemical rather than mechanical bond --- I believe that is a good thing and what I prefer in a finishing system.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/



These users thanked the author kencierp for the post: DannyV (Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:12 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:33 pm 
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kencierp wrote:
I have contacted "Pacer" regarding nitro compatibility, nitro can and should be applied directly to Zpoxy.

Thanks Ken. I'm going with that........ this time.


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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:03 pm 
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First name: Danny
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Woodie G wrote:
Mr. Vincent:

We had this discussion with the boss over the weekend and I followed up today over lunch via text message. He could not recall whether the notes on the videos now reflect this approach, but I'll make those changes if not.

Here are the salient points of the discussion:


- With Mohawk, he feels it's a toss-up between platina shellac, vinyl sealer, and nude - Mohawk's vinyl sealer is not effective at cushioning shock and the lacquer is quite a bit softer than McFaddens with a better plasticiser package, so hangs on a bit better given a naked surface (I was unfamiliar with that term, but is apparently acceptable in what passes for polite company)

- Go with the finish manufacturer's suggestions on tie coat if you don't have some experience with the system. He suggests that he has not used Cardinal, but notes that he thinks it will be closer to McFaddens than Mohawk.

- Make sure the surface of the epoxy is well toothed and no amine blush, etc. remains on the instrument before either sealing or shooting finish coats.

- Accept that some people's chemistry will degrade nitro-to-epoxy bonds, no matter what the tie coat or lack of one. Shellac can help here, but the film thickness required means 2-3 full coats and care in sanding. He notes that this is usually only an issue on the neck, and there is more tolerance for the additional film thickness there than on the body.

I think I got that all - will check and see. Good luck, Mr. Vincent!


Woodie. My dad was Mr. Vincent. I respond to a number of different names. Don't be shy. I'm pretty thick skinned. ;)

I have always used Mohawk. There is a well equipped store in Vancouver. Unfortunately the staff appears to have inhaled a little more of their product than what's good for them. They were the one's that mentioned the cushioning of vinyl sealer. I think for that application, under nitro it's a great product. Also a very good sanding sealer. I am suspect of the adhesion between it and epoxy. My tell tale test is when you sink an awl into the wood for a strap button. How big of a delimitation do you get around the hole. The least I have seen is nitro over shellac. None. The worst I have seen is nitro over vinyl over Zpoxy. Sometimes as much as 1/8" circumference around the awl hole. That and delamb dings on binding corners while at some point between final finish sanding and final user. Those are pretty aggravating.

I agree on the toothing. I'm thinking 220G is maybe the way to go. But that may not help on the corners where it is more likely to occur. It would appear, for whatever reason, time makes this less of an issue.

On necks. I never use any tie coat. I've never had a problem getting enough build up. It's pretty easy to build up a neck with finish even with Mahogany.

I'm going with nitro over Zpoxy for the back and sides. (thanks Ken) It's a first for me. I'll let know when I sink an awl into the butt. :shock:

If in fact there is a burn into the Zpoxy like Ken mentioned, that would be a beautiful thing.

Thanks for the well thought response Mr. Stoc...... Woody. :lol: Seems like all is becoming well with the Universe.


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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:10 pm
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First name: Tom
Last Name: West
State: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I spray nitro directly on Zpoxy and have had no problems.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!



These users thanked the author Tom West for the post: DannyV (Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:05 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:32 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am
Posts: 1370
First name: Willard
Last Name: Guthrie
City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
Looking through the archives, it appears as though Mr. Howard Klepper advocated the same thing - nitro directly on epoxy. It does not sound as though there will be any problems with the Mohawk lacquer.

Will convey your thanks, Danny - I've been after him to finish the neck filling video and re-shoot the first three. Not holding my breath, and I'm not sure he'd notice anyway. gaah

_________________
Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
– General George S. Patton Jr.


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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:11 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:20 am
Posts: 2575
Location: Powell River BC Canada
First name: Danny
Last Name: Vincent
Woodie G wrote:
I'm not sure he'd notice anyway. gaah

Haha. Oh he would notice. Would he force you to breath that's another thing. Say hi. He's one of the guys who has made the whole process a lot easier and a lot more entertaining.


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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:14 am
Posts: 195
First name: Nils
Last Name: Johnson
City: Boston
State: Massachusetts
What about catalyzed urethane? Seems to me like if nitro sticks, this will too. Anyone have any insight though?


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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:31 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:36 am
Posts: 1595
State: ON
Country: Canada
Status: Professional
I'm a Mohawk user. I started out using it directly on Zpoxy with no known issues. Then I'm sure there was several discussions hear a few years back about how sealing with shellac was a good thing with a wide variety of finishes. So now I do a light coat of shellac between the epoxy and nitro. Again no known issues either way.

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com



These users thanked the author Josh H for the post: DannyV (Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:23 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:40 pm 
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First name: Stuart
Last Name: Gort
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The Mohawk vinyl sealer can bind over any epoxy pore fill...to be followed by Mohawk nitro. There are other solutions but I can vouch for that one.

Just make sure the epoxy is FULLY cured and then clean well with solvent prior to the vinyl sealer.

One advantage to using Mohawk nitro over their vinyl is that they claim the topcoat will burn into the vinyl. ....a big deal when it comes to sanding vinyl. You want to avoid that step if you can. Sanding vinyl sucks.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic



These users thanked the author Stuart Gort for the post: DannyV (Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:24 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:26 pm 
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I did a test board with Cardinal. Spraying finish over their vinyl sealer seemed to have a slight advantage over spraying direct on zpoxy. the bond was pretty good both ways.

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Maker of Sawdust



These users thanked the author Joe Beaver for the post: DannyV (Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:24 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Zpoxy Tie Coat
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:38 am
Posts: 195
Danny, did you sink the awl in yet? delam?

DannyV wrote:
Woodie G wrote:
Mr. Vincent:

We had this discussion with the boss over the weekend and I followed up today over lunch via text message. He could not recall whether the notes on the videos now reflect this approach, but I'll make those changes if not.

Here are the salient points of the discussion:


- With Mohawk, he feels it's a toss-up between platina shellac, vinyl sealer, and nude - Mohawk's vinyl sealer is not effective at cushioning shock and the lacquer is quite a bit softer than McFaddens with a better plasticiser package, so hangs on a bit better given a naked surface (I was unfamiliar with that term, but is apparently acceptable in what passes for polite company)

- Go with the finish manufacturer's suggestions on tie coat if you don't have some experience with the system. He suggests that he has not used Cardinal, but notes that he thinks it will be closer to McFaddens than Mohawk.

- Make sure the surface of the epoxy is well toothed and no amine blush, etc. remains on the instrument before either sealing or shooting finish coats.

- Accept that some people's chemistry will degrade nitro-to-epoxy bonds, no matter what the tie coat or lack of one. Shellac can help here, but the film thickness required means 2-3 full coats and care in sanding. He notes that this is usually only an issue on the neck, and there is more tolerance for the additional film thickness there than on the body.

I think I got that all - will check and see. Good luck, Mr. Vincent!


Woodie. My dad was Mr. Vincent. I respond to a number of different names. Don't be shy. I'm pretty thick skinned. ;)

I have always used Mohawk. There is a well equipped store in Vancouver. Unfortunately the staff appears to have inhaled a little more of their product than what's good for them. They were the one's that mentioned the cushioning of vinyl sealer. I think for that application, under nitro it's a great product. Also a very good sanding sealer. I am suspect of the adhesion between it and epoxy. My tell tale test is when you sink an awl into the wood for a strap button. How big of a delimitation do you get around the hole. The least I have seen is nitro over shellac. None. The worst I have seen is nitro over vinyl over Zpoxy. Sometimes as much as 1/8" circumference around the awl hole. That and delamb dings on binding corners while at some point between final finish sanding and final user. Those are pretty aggravating.

I agree on the toothing. I'm thinking 220G is maybe the way to go. But that may not help on the corners where it is more likely to occur. It would appear, for whatever reason, time makes this less of an issue.

On necks. I never use any tie coat. I've never had a problem getting enough build up. It's pretty easy to build up a neck with finish even with Mahogany.

I'm going with nitro over Zpoxy for the back and sides. (thanks Ken) It's a first for me. I'll let know when I sink an awl into the butt. :shock:

If in fact there is a burn into the Zpoxy like Ken mentioned, that would be a beautiful thing.

Thanks for the well thought response Mr. Stoc...... Woody. :lol: Seems like all is becoming well with the Universe.


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