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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:20 pm 
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I am playing with a odd x brace idea. My thoughts are to glue cloth reinforcing at the rounded notches and glue in . History tells us that curved shapes are stronger than square cut outs . IE Bridges . So I have thought about trying this as an option . Most failure I have seen on the x stems from the notch . I am thinking about eliminating that squared corner situation . My braces are two piece glued braces as you might be able to tell with the one picture . Thoughts ?

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Last edited by WudWerkr on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:30 pm 
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If you're concerned about the x joint splitting, just cap it.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:36 pm 
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It would eliminate stress risers at the cost of all joint integrity. A glue soaked cloth will not help much.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:45 pm 
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My layman's interpretation says that whatever strength derived from the butt-glued sides of the x in contact with each other is lost. Whether the rounded shape if the complementary cutouts reduces a stress riser well enough to overcomes that loss, a structures engineer could enlighten us. But capping the top of the 'x' sure mitigates a whole bunch of weakness all by itself. Tapered splice, nice long gluing area?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:57 pm 
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An interesting experiment, and I honestly don’t know what the result might be. But I’d be prepared for some looseness just south of the soundhole.

So I’d stick a brace just below the soundhole, connecting the 2 parts of the x-brace.

I’d also expand the footprint of the bridge plate, to minimize the inclination to pull up.

That is the fundamental joint in the guitar. I’d be vary careful about weakening it without building in some compensation.

On the other hand, to quote Stephen King, “god hates a coward”.

Steve


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:55 am 
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I'd put a decent cap on that.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:29 am 
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I’ve been capping mine lately with scrap pieces of BRW. Ideally I’d like to go taller to minimize the effect of the notch being the one of the weaker point of the brace.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:24 am 
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I don't really see a problem with traditional joint. beehive
With the open part of the notches, a cap on one brace and the soundboard glued to the other gives quite a bit of reinforcement to the crossing point.
Can't remember seeing a failure reported on the OLF, or anywhere else for that matter.
Heavens, how many guitars have been made with just a cloth patch glued over a very sloppy or butt joint?

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These users thanked the author Colin North for the post: Clinchriver (Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:21 am)
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:34 am 
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meddlingfool wrote:
If you're concerned about the x joint splitting, just cap it.


Always Cap my Joints , will on this one as well . That's not really the issue . I am experimenting with different idea . Thanks for the comment [:Y:]

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:40 am 
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JSDenvir wrote:
An interesting experiment, and I honestly don’t know what the result might be. But I’d be prepared for some looseness just south of the soundhole.

So I’d stick a brace just below the soundhole, connecting the 2 parts of the x-brace.

I’d also expand the footprint of the bridge plate, to minimize the inclination to pull up.

That is the fundamental joint in the guitar. I’d be vary careful about weakening it without building in some compensation.

On the other hand, to quote Stephen King, “god hates a coward”.

Steve


Thank you . I have a brace marked and planned for the point you referenced . Bridge plate , Good thought . I have some experience in engineering and design , so i'm not totally convinced its a weaker joint . In buildings / bridges etc: the curve or arch actually transfers the load more evenly outward toward the points of contact better than a square corner . I am actually wondering if I will get a bit "more" flexibility over the stiffer glued joint ? It is an experiment for sure . [:Y:]

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
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Last edited by WudWerkr on Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:49 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:44 am 
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Colin North wrote:
I don't really see a problem with traditional joint. beehive
With the open part of the notches, a cap on one brace and the soundboard glued to the other gives quite a bit of reinforcement to the crossing point.
Can't remember seeing a failure reported on the OLF, or anywhere else for that matter.
Heavens, how many guitars have been made with just a cloth patch glued over a very sloppy or butt joint?


I am not disagreeing on a traditional joint , I am curious to see how an alternative idea will work . Thousands if not millions I am sure . I have repaired several that split at the joint . I wish i had a way to deflection test this ..... May have to try to come up with an idea . Thanks for the comment [:Y:]

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:46 am 
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Barry Daniels wrote:
It would eliminate stress risers at the cost of all joint integrity. A glue soaked cloth will not help much.


Not Convinced that I am giving up joint integrity . I use standard joints as well , have on several guitars . Experimentation is the direction here . Thanks for the Comment [:Y:]

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:52 am 
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phavriluk wrote:
My layman's interpretation says that whatever strength derived from the butt-glued sides of the x in contact with each other is lost. Whether the rounded shape if the complementary cutouts reduces a stress riser well enough to overcomes that loss, a structures engineer could enlighten us. But capping the top of the 'x' sure mitigates a whole bunch of weakness all by itself. Tapered splice, nice long gluing area?


That's the crux -o- the matter . Arches tend to be stronger and deflect load outward better than square corners ... Capped .. Yes it will be Thanx for your comment [:Y:]

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:55 am 
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It will make for excellent marketing :D


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:57 am 
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WudWerkr wrote:
Colin North wrote:
I don't really see a problem with traditional joint. beehive
With the open part of the notches, a cap on one brace and the soundboard glued to the other gives quite a bit of reinforcement to the crossing point.
Can't remember seeing a failure reported on the OLF, or anywhere else for that matter.
Heavens, how many guitars have been made with just a cloth patch glued over a very sloppy or butt joint?


I am not disagreeing on a traditional joint , I am curious to see how an alternative idea will work . Thousands if not millions I am sure . I have repaired several that split at the joint . I wish i had a way to deflection test this ..... May have to try to come up with an idea . Thanks for the comment [:Y:]

You could try Howard's brick. http://howardguitars.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/deflection-testing-of-acoustic-guitar.html

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:16 am 
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actually a glue soaked cloths does more than you may think don't take my word do an merriment and see what happens.

as a repair shop I have seen more failures from caps that cloth. Martin has been doing this since 1833 and there are few failures. Most of them can be traced to failure from outside stress.

Your curve will reduce a stress riser on one area and place it at another. The exposed brace is square on the top , that can be a point of a stress riser though your braces is wide enough it may or may not be a concern.

One of the most creative ideas was a slot that was cut into the X braces and a small 1/8 in insert that was 1/2 lapped opposite the X brace glued in. It looked pretty neat and was a different approach .

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:24 am 
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From a structural engineering standpoint the issue is that you have cut a round notch halfway through the brace which reduces its strength significantly (about 75%). There is still a stress riser in the notch. In other words, if someone sits on the guitar the notch is where it will break.

The square notch in a traditional x-brace gets another brace tightly fitted and glued, completely filling the notch. As long as the joint remains sound there is little strength removed from the brace.

Jim, your design is a solution in search of a problem.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:04 am 
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Barry Daniels wrote:
From a structural engineering standpoint the issue is that you have cut a round notch halfway through the brace which reduces its strength significantly (about 75%). There is still a stress riser in the notch. In other words, if someone sits on the guitar the notch is where it will break.

The square notch in a traditional x-brace gets another brace tightly fitted and glued, completely filling the notch. As long as the joint remains sound there is little strength removed from the brace.

Jim, your design is a solution in search of a problem.


You could try Howard's brick. http://howardguitars.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... uitar.html


Thank you for the input . If someone sits on the guitar , square or arched somethin gonna give lolol laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe I will do a deflection test on the braces . You may well be right. However curiosity is strong in this one . lolololol

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:53 am 
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bluescreek wrote:
as a repair shop I have seen more failures from caps that cloth. Martin has been doing this since 1833 and there are few failures. Most of them can be traced to failure from outside stress.


John, I am surprised that you have seen several failures from Capped braces; it seemed pretty bullet-proof to me. Can you tell us more about the nature of these failures? If there is a hidden problem with that approach, I'd sure like to know. It may be that I am misreading your post and you mean that most of the failures (Including capped braces) can be traces back to outside stress. If not, how/where are you seeing the failures? Is the cap failing? The top notched brace? The bottom notched brace. . .

Of course, I'm not directing this only to John, let's hear from anyone who has seen a capped joint fail.

EDIT: Sorry Wud, I don't mean to hijack your thread/ it seamed pretty closely related. . .

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:59 am 
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Bryan Bear wrote:
bluescreek wrote:
as a repair shop I have seen more failures from caps that cloth. Martin has been doing this since 1833 and there are few failures. Most of them can be traced to failure from outside stress.


John, I am surprised that you have seen several failures from Capped braces; it seemed pretty bullet-proof to me. Can you tell us more about the nature of these failures? If there is a hidden problem with that approach, I'd sure like to know. It may be that I am misreading your post and you mean that most of the failures (Including capped braces) can be traces back to outside stress. If not, how/where are you seeing the failures? Is the cap failing? The top notched brace? The bottom notched brace. . .

Of course, I'm not directing this only to John, let's hear from anyone who has seen a capped joint fail.

EDIT: Sorry Wud, I don't mean to hijack your thread/ it seamed pretty closely related. . .


Most of the ones I have seen either way Capped or Cloth the break tends to be at / close to the square corner of the notch . Thus the Idea to eliminate that stress point . Is this the answer ? Probably not. Figure its worth a test though. However John has probably much more experience in that area.

No prob Bryan .... All input welcome

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:17 pm 
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I would suspect that many of the cap failures John sees would be due to inadequate glue surface area each side of the joint. Many caps I see are cut back dramatically with the shaping of the braces. A cloth patch may not appear to fail, but that may be because it has the flexibility to move with the joint, rather than actually stiffening it to the same degree as a properly detailed cap.



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:47 pm 
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When I think of the strength of an arch, I think of the load being placed at the apex of the arch.

Another approach to strengthening the X might be to add fillets of wood - as the corners of some boxes are reinforced. So far I have been happy enough capping the X and still consider this to be a bit of "icing on the cake".


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Clay S. wrote:
When I think of the strength of an arch, I think of the load being placed at the apex of the arch.

Another approach to strengthening the X might be to add fillets of wood - as the corners of some boxes are reinforced. So far I have been happy enough capping the X and still consider this to be a bit of "icing on the cake".


I have two others I will be using standard Bracing ( may do all three and use this bracing to do testing ) and use on next build if it pans out . Playing with ideas at this point .

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:25 pm 
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"Patented Tone Enhancing X Brace Joint"! "Engineered to blah blah..... "I think you're on to something Wud! :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:27 pm 
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DannyV wrote:
"Patented Tone Enhancing X Brace Joint"! "Engineered to blah blah..... "I think you're on to something Wud! :lol:


laughing6-hehe On to the next beer for for sure ! laughing6-hehe

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
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