Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:44 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Open ended drum sander
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:49 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:59 pm
Posts: 38
First name: Jonny
Last Name: Fifield
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hi Folks

Is there some way to set up a open ended drum sander to produce even sanding across the full width of the belt?I am having mixed results and they are mostly all over the place depending on belt drive speed and material.Any help here would be great and much needed [headinwall] .

JJ

_________________
"Practice enough till the results aren't hopes but expectations" forum member Peter Havriluk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:13 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:42 pm
Posts: 1178
First name: John
Last Name: Parchem
City: Seattle
State: Wa
Zip/Postal Code: 98177
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Which sander? I have a jet 22-44. I have to adjust it level every now and then. I never got the need for the speed adjustment I go full speed all of the time. I only take a very little off each pass. I use 80 grit for the most part, sometimes 100. Also I put though each piece flipped side to side and end for end with sequential passes. When working with hardwoods, I make multiple passes without adjusting the thickness knob. It is too easy to get ahead of the sander ability to remove wood,

WIth all of that my pieces measure flat when I am finished.

_________________
http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:19 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm
Posts: 996
First name: Jay
Last Name: De Rocher
City: Bothell
State: Washington
Zip/Postal Code: 98021
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I have a Performax 16-32 and I follow the setup instructions shown below to align the drum. I follow their recommendation to set the outboard end of the drum slightly high and get good results. Even if you have a different sander than mine, the setup principle is probably the same or similar.

When using the sander, I do exactly as John recommended above with light passes, flipping end to end and side to side, and I finish with multiple passes without touching the adjustment knob.

Attachment:
Performax drum alignment.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:49 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 3195
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Got to love the help you get from this forum!

_________________
“There are two men inside the artist, the poet and the craftsman. One is born a poet. One becomes a craftsman.” - Emile Zola


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:59 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:50 pm
Posts: 1276
Location: Seattle WA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I have a Ryobi, and it uses shims on the outside of the unit where the sanding bed attaches to the base.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:55 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:03 am
Posts: 1737
Location: Litchfield MI
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Accurate set up, very light cuts, low speed feed, fresh abrasive. Trying to hog off material will hinder the accuracy of any machine of this design.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:01 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 661
First name: Don
Last Name: Parker
City: Charleston
State: West Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 25314
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
It probably goes without saying (but I will say it anyway): If you have a cantilevered sander that is wider than the tops and backs you are building, then as long as you get the drum close to parallel to the conveyor, a little variance is no big deal. If, on the other hand, you are using a sander that is narrower than the tops and backs you are building, and you need to tilt the drum to avoid the ridge in the workpiece that can occur at the end of the drum, then that requires a bit more attention. People do it successfully, so no worries if you are in that situation, but you need to follow the instructions in the manual. The Jet/Performax instructions (shown above) are what I used when I owned a sander like that (a 10-20).

I will say that I prefer not having to deal with that, now that I have a larger sander that is also not cantilevered. Like I said, it can be done, and people do it, but I prefer not having to worry about it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:06 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:25 pm
Posts: 1668
First name: George
City: Seattle
State: WA
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Jonny - As you have likely surmised, the short answer is "No." Thankfully, as Don points out, all is not lost! :)

These machines can be set up to get you very close, but to get the most uniform results possible across the entire plate you typically need to run the material through multiple times at opposite orientations. I have the smaller Performax/Jet 10-20. I set it up and run it precisely as Jay illustrates and operate it as John describes, although I don't run the feed belt at 100%. I don't know what Ken considers "slow" but I typically get the best results at about 75% speed. Anything less seems to encourage burning and/or buildup on the abrasive belt.

Approaching the process in this manner, I achieve perfectly acceptable results. Multiple light passes is the trick, in my opinion.

_________________
George :-)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:19 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2568
I would guess that most builders end up with a tapered top where the center is thicker than the edges. I always did. That said, I had my 16/32 Jet set to taper the material by .004-.008". Not necessary to get an absolutely dead flat top, back or even ribs.

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:33 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 856
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I had to adjust mine (16/32) to be level when I first installed it. At that time I was building 00's and Uke's. The soundboards and backs just fit without over hanging. This fall I'm building my first dread. Looks like I'll be doing the shim trick from the manual. Good timing on this thread! :)

_________________
"Is this the one where I trot downfield and act like I'm lost ?" - Billy Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:38 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:27 pm
Posts: 155
First name: john
Last Name: shelton
City: Alsea
State: Oregon
Zip/Postal Code: 97324
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I use a sled. It's easier and more accurate than fooling around trying to get the drum parallel with the bed. The sled gets trued up every now and then by running it through the sander and attaching a new fence.



These users thanked the author jshelton for the post: Imbler (Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:35 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:47 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:14 pm
Posts: 438
First name: Mike
Last Name: Imbler
City: Wichita
State: KS
Zip/Postal Code: 67204
Country: usa
Focus: Build
jshelton wrote:
I use a sled. It's easier and more accurate than fooling around trying to get the drum parallel with the bed. The sled gets trued up every now and then by running it through the sander and attaching a new fence.


Great idea for perfect leveling. I'm being a little dense on the fence though. Could you explain what that is?



These users thanked the author Imbler for the post: Grunt (Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:34 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:05 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 1708
Location: United States
I will bet the fence is a board on the back edge of the sled to keep the workpiece from slipping off. It probably gets sanded away when resurfacing.



These users thanked the author Barry Daniels for the post: Imbler (Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:10 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:11 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:14 pm
Posts: 438
First name: Mike
Last Name: Imbler
City: Wichita
State: KS
Zip/Postal Code: 67204
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Barry Daniels wrote:
I will bet the fence is a board on the back edge of the sled to keep the workpiece from slipping off. It probably gets sanded away when resurfacing.


Yep, I'll bet that is it. Thanks Barry! I knew I was being a little dense :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:35 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:12 am
Posts: 1127
First name: Rodger
Last Name: Knox
City: Baltimore
State: MD
Zip/Postal Code: 21234
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Haans wrote:
I would guess that most builders end up with a tapered top where the center is thicker than the edges. I always did. That said, I had my 16/32 Jet set to taper the material by .004-.008". Not necessary to get an absolutely dead flat top, back or even ribs.


I have a Performax 16-32 that I can usually get within .003" inside to outside, with the larger gap to the outside. Once again, light cuts and quick passes works best.

_________________
A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:57 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:44 am
Posts: 526
First name: Mark
City: Concord
State: NC
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Not my idea or photo but I did something similar to this on my Ryobi when I had it:
Image The inserted photo shows how Steel City Tools packaged their version after they bought the tooling from Ryobi.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:11 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:26 pm
Posts: 21
First name: Carl
Last Name: Dickinson
City: Forest Ranch
State: California
Zip/Postal Code: 95942
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I have several sleds for sides, 1/2 tops/backs and full width (16-32). I used old belts contact cemented to them so I don't need a fence. Be aware to keep the sled traveling through the sander in the same direction each time.

When the sander gets periodically adjusted sand the bottoms of the sleds to reestablish the flat plane.


Last edited by CarlD on Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:26 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:17 am
Posts: 1903
Location: Evanston, IL
First name: Steve
Last Name: Courtright
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Another factor is how the sandpaper attaches, sometimes leaving a bit of extra material causing a raised spot at the attachment point. One has to be careful that the paper is flat on the roll at the ends where it attaches.

As the sander works the paper tends to shift, causing the bunching effect at an attachment point to worsen and dig deeper into the wood being sanded.

_________________
"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck



These users thanked the author SteveCourtright for the post (total 2): Imbler (Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:53 pm) • kencierp (Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:42 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:56 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:14 pm
Posts: 438
First name: Mike
Last Name: Imbler
City: Wichita
State: KS
Zip/Postal Code: 67204
Country: usa
Focus: Build
SteveCourtright wrote:
Another factor is how the sandpaper attaches, sometimes leaving a bit of extra material causing a raised spot at the attachment point. One has to be careful that the paper is flat on the roll at the ends where it attaches.

As the sander works the paper tends to shift, causing the bunching effect at an attachment point to worsen and dig deeper into the wood being sanded.


That is actually the trickiest part for me, although using some gooseneck needlenose pliers to stretch the paper at the attachment points helps.

Because of the rotation direction, the open end stays tight for me and the attachment at the opposite end doesn't lay as flat as I'd like even with the spring take-up.

When sanding tops, I watch how far I insert the top towards the closed end to avoid that flap.
Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:00 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:42 pm
Posts: 1178
First name: John
Last Name: Parchem
City: Seattle
State: Wa
Zip/Postal Code: 98177
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Mark Fogleman wrote:
Not my idea or photo but I did something similar to this on my Ryobi when I had it:
Image The inserted photo shows how Steel City Tools packaged their version after they bought the tooling from Ryobi.


I may be slow today but I do not understand. If the drum is not parallel it seems that you would need to level every time you lowered the drum a bit. When loose for lowering the drum what keeps it parallel?

_________________
http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:35 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:14 pm
Posts: 438
First name: Mike
Last Name: Imbler
City: Wichita
State: KS
Zip/Postal Code: 67204
Country: usa
Focus: Build
I deleted this comment, because I realized John P was asking a different question than the one I answered which rendered my answer irrelevant.
Mike


Last edited by Imbler on Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:49 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:27 pm
Posts: 155
First name: john
Last Name: shelton
City: Alsea
State: Oregon
Zip/Postal Code: 97324
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Barry Daniels wrote:
I will bet the fence is a board on the back edge of the sled to keep the workpiece from slipping off. It probably gets sanded away when resurfacing.

Exactly, I should have been more clear.



These users thanked the author jshelton for the post: Imbler (Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:35 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:51 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:27 pm
Posts: 155
First name: john
Last Name: shelton
City: Alsea
State: Oregon
Zip/Postal Code: 97324
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Imbler wrote:
That is actually the trickiest part for me, although using some gooseneck needlenose pliers to stretch the paper at the attachment points helps.
Mike

What a good idea! I've been using a little piece of wood to push the sandpaper down while I hold the locking device (impossible to describe I know).



These users thanked the author jshelton for the post: Imbler (Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:35 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:00 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:44 am
Posts: 526
First name: Mark
City: Concord
State: NC
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
johnparchem wrote:
Mark Fogleman wrote:
Not my idea or photo but I did something similar to this on my Ryobi when I had it:
Image The inserted photo shows how Steel City Tools packaged their version after they bought the tooling from Ryobi.


I may be slow today but I do not understand. If the drum is not parallel it seems that you would need to level every time you lowered the drum a bit. When loose for lowering the drum what keeps it parallel?


You first shim the base of the conveyor to have the drum parallel with it. Then as you make your final passes you lock the open end to prevent it from flexing.



These users thanked the author Mark Fogleman for the post: johnparchem (Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:34 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:36 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:42 pm
Posts: 1178
First name: John
Last Name: Parchem
City: Seattle
State: Wa
Zip/Postal Code: 98177
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Mark Fogleman wrote:
johnparchem wrote:
Mark Fogleman wrote:
Not my idea or photo but I did something similar to this on my Ryobi when I had it:
Image The inserted photo shows how Steel City Tools packaged their version after they bought the tooling from Ryobi.


I may be slow today but I do not understand. If the drum is not parallel it seems that you would need to level every time you lowered the drum a bit. When loose for lowering the drum what keeps it parallel?


You first shim the base of the conveyor to have the drum parallel with it. Then as you make your final passes you lock the open end to prevent it from flexing.


Thank you, I understand now It is to deal with the flex of a properly set up sander. A very good idea.

_________________
http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com