Official Luthiers Forum!

HI Everyone!
Poll time! This only takes a moment and does not require you to sign in. What affects an acoustic guitar's tone more? Please particiapate! Click here:
http://www.polljunkie.com/poll/zaozxy/what-affects-an-acoustic-guitars-tone-more
Thanks! Chris -LMI

Does soundboard thickness fall in the "soundboard wood" or "bracing" category?

Dennis,
Good question.
Let's put that under bracing, as the wood reply is specific to the species.

Neat poll! I'm a little surprised at where Scale Length seems to be showing up in the results so far. I put it at the bottom, which basically illuminates how much I know about creating good tone in an instrument.

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Chris, it's interesting that the only human factor is the player's hands, but really - the list should also include the skill of the luthier.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Don - maybe the next poll should isolate that question (separately). Maybe: Aside from changing the design and components of the instrument, what does the luthier do in his work to improve the sound of the guitar?

bcombs510 -the article I wrote for the LMI website discusses this somewhat. Scale length is huge! http://www.lmii.com/scale-length-intonation

Thanks for the link, I will read it more thoroughly tonight. I hadn't considered the scale length can be optional, but I guess anything is optional if you know what you're doing. I'm new to this so I'll stick to what my plan says for now.

Edit: Optional meaning able to be changed from the plan. Not optional as in I can put frets wherever I please.

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I love the drag & drop poll layout - never seen that before!

You forgot the magic tone sparkles though Chris. I sprinkle them in every soundhole, and the effect is huge!

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I know, right?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I think it's less about "improving the sound", and more about getting the most out of the design and woods as is possible.
Two builders, using identical materials and designs will come up with different results almost every time because of their approach and their skill sets. Their experience is very hard to quantify, but it plays a large role.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

And where's the fossilized mammoth tusk nut vs corian? Plastic pegs vs titanium?? burnt vs. au natural...? French vs. poly? normal vs. sunburst? hide vs. fish vs. roofing nails?

I'm thinking this poll was wayyyyy too chicken.

I am surprised that the string choice sits so low. and hands/skill. Although I had an internal argument whether those really are altering the tone of the guitar or just the action of choosing the tones that the guitar is capable of producing. A bit like adding pickup type or performance roomdimensions to the mix.... kinda external to the guitar.

Ooohhh and sound port or not?
And the luthier's name...
Old growth vs. ?

Robert Lak -Nice list!!! We are on the same page, and our "scientific analysis" will tackle these tough questions eventually.
David Collins -Tone stones are where it's at. Trade in your sparkles for stones, man....

Can't take the poll either even though I wanted too. It's impossible to prioritize what contributes ultimately to a system when one views a guitar as a system. To me every single choice offered is important.

Chris, just a note to say thanks for the scale length/intonation article. Really helpful.

Steve

So many of these elements (bracing, bridge weight, body size etc) are inextricably linked as part of the design process. By which I mean, many (most?) luthiers surely don't make changes to just one of these elements in isolation? They are all interrelating factors in the design of the instrument. Bracing is designed with the stiffness of the soundboard in mind, timber species may selected not necessarily on its own merits, but in the context of the other timbers used on the guitar, or the outcome desired. Etc I'm not sure these are distinct design elements that can be 'ranked'.

I also have a poll for you guys, responses greatly appreciated:

http://www.polljunkie.com/poll/jtfiro/w ... lling-down

Hesh -I think you could say that if any one factor was really poor that it could sink the whole project. But the poll does reflect some
widely held opinions. That the soundboard is more important, tonally, than the fingerboard, for example.

Can you define "tone", please?

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

A good player can make a crappy guitar sound nice. Vice-versa.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Trevor -my favorite question of all!

Aiyah! Where to start?

Okay, I'll start with a thumbs up to Trevor's question: "What is tone"?

This question is similar to "What is beautiful"? Or "What is delicious"?

One might ask "What affects a picture's beauty"? Rank the following: pigment (hue, saturation, durability), vehicle, brush (hair, construction, ferrule, shaft), canvas (material, thread count), sizing, frame, varnish. Assuming that we nail down those variables, what does the painter contribute?

I'm sorry, Chris. I can't jump on the wagon for your description of the effects of scale length.

"The short scaled guitar will be sweeter and warmer sounding. The basses may be rounder (some might say ‘muddier’) but the highs will be more lyrical and resonant sounding."

No, the short scaled instrument will sound "muddy", and "dissonant" across its range (think ukulele, or spinet). That's why every stringed instrument in every culture evolves towards higher tension, and longer string length. Short scales increase the inharmonicity of each string's overtones.

"Excess tension limits the string’s ability to vibrate freely. A stiff string is not only difficult to play on, it is also going to sound one-dimensional. This is because it can not divide up into enough harmonic nodes to make a pleasing sound. Furthermore, it will be hard to keep an overly stiff string in tune as it causes the tuning machines to work harder than necessary.

Keep in mind also that the angle of the string over the nut, and the degree to which a string moves at an angle from the nut to the tuning post, will increase tension in the string."

Well, no. And no.

I really didn't have much trouble responding to the poll, probably because I didn't try to over think it. My results came out pretty close to the group consensus thus far; but, perhaps I'm only responding to a bias that I've learned based on all the discussions I've read to date. Maybe the more ignorant one is, the easier it is to respond. Anyway, asking one question often leads to more, and I'm enjoying this thread and the poll. Thanks for asking.

I was going to ask if you really need to define tone in order to determine what affects tone (which is what was asked), but then I see that some definitions include the "quality" of tone... "quality" is such a personal preference that it needs to be ignored.

Other definitions include "feeling" or eliciting "emotion"... how does one account for the different way people deal and express their emotions? Not a wordaholic here, but shouldn't a definition, by definition be exact?

definition:
1. a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary.

This actually turns out to be interesting...

As I think about my next guitars I had some questions floating around in my head that I wanted to grasp a bit better before I start. This was a good reminder to start delving into some of that now.