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 Post subject: Bolt-on neck fasteners
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:52 pm 
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Koa
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Elsewhere on this forum we have a discussion listing poor-practices-that-need-to-stop. I thought I'd pose a related question in it own thread and avoid discussing my question there.

There's been a fair bit of traffic here concerning barrel bolts' holes in neck tenons tearing out, and related discussions of heel fractures on necks that are flush bolted to the body, i.e., no tenon.

We seem to habitually use 1/4-20 bolts which are right large. What's wrong with using 3/16" bolts, 10-32, which cause less wood to be removed in places where there's none too much to start with? Will using smaller fasteners cause more localized stress and thereby cause worse tearout of neck wood? My intuitive guess suggests that a combination of drilling the tenon/heel for a vertical dowel, and using 10-32 bolts would be steps in the direction of retaining heel/tenon strength yet allow bolts to be more safely used for attachment. Or three 8-32 bolts? Why only two big bolts? Airplanes use lots of small ones out of kindness to the materials.

Thanks for your thoughts, reactions, and dope slaps in my direction, folks.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:26 pm 
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The barrel nut strategy is something I would never do -- I have seen too many threads about failures and processing problems. While it is certainly better than William's wood pin neck retainers in my opinion there are better systems available. So I have no comment on more smaller barrel nuts.

As for threaded inserts --two 1/4-20 bolts have been tried and true for three decades or more now, not too big -- the arrangement works just fine. What gets used and can be too big are the threaded inserts --- the correct ones are the thread cutting "course" version, the common fine thread style require a larger hole and are not suited for a standard 3/4" wide tenon.

Here's some info which also shows our fixture for installing the inserts -- driving inserts without backing the tenon introduces a chance of cracks.

http://acousticguitarconstructionforum. ... f=14&t=194

I guess the "straw-man" here was that 1/4" bolts are a problem -- that is not the case. So the question gets reversed what would be the advantage of using smaller screws and more of them?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:10 am 
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Ken, my speculation was that going from two big fasteners to three smaller ones would mount the neck with a bit of triangulation, and the third fastener at the bottom would be used in an area where the least amount of heel material was present, all serving the notion that doing so would lessen the likelihood of the heel splitting at the fastener. Operative words are 'speculation', 'notion', 'lessen', and 'likelihood'. I had a notion that doing so would afford a larger margin of material safety of the neck at the bottom solo fastener. No, I didn't calculate the comparative cross-sectional areas of the 3x3/16 and 2x1/4 shanks to see if I was in fact splitting the same fastener strength among three fasteners rather than 2. I cannot recall in my limited experience, any comments that a quarter-inch neck bolt ever failed in tension, which provoked the idea of reducing the fastener size. Maybe I ought to change tack and campaign that guitars using the three-fastener configuration sound better than those whose necks are installed with two.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:13 am 
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With proper reinforcement I think the barrel bolt joint is very reliable but there are certainly alternatives that are just as reliable for a flat top.

For archtops with a higher neck angle the barrel nuts are great as they can rotate to give a straight path for the bolt.

I would not recommend the barrel nut joint without reinforcement. My crude experiments showed that it failed fairly easily but with cross grain reinforcement was very stable. The failure was in tension and the reinforcement served as an effective tension band.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:05 am 
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Collings uses two smaller hanger bolts with a birch cross dowel. I have personally never seen or heard of one failing. Maybe others have. It seems like a well engineered system. There are a lot of them out in the world working. Inserts always seem shallow and redundant.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:27 am 
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I'm really curious what the underlying reason(s) could be for a failure of a barrel bolt hole. I figure that the tension on the bolts/barrels should be pretty low assuming the builder didn't crank down hard on the bolts when installing the neck. A while back I calculated what the outward pull on the bolts from the string tension would be if viewing the neck as a lever arm pivoting at the 14th fret and it only came out to about 12-15 lbs for the bolt closest to the heel cap. That doesn't seem like a very big load especially if the tenon is reinforced with cross grain laminations.

For you guys that have seen these kinds of failures, what do you think caused them? Any kind of pattern such as failures associated with impacts to the neck or unreinforced tenons?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:20 am 
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I think the loads on the neck joint from string load are not very large. On the other hand there are the loads imposed by players that are probably greater. How many of us grab the body and neck to induce some vibrato in that final ringing chord?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:50 am 
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It seems that the majority of the failures with these barrel nut joints is not the basic concept but rather the not so thought out variations which tend to compromise the practical tenon strength. Note in the attached Cumpiano diagram the overall length of the tenon and most importantly the placement of the lower fastener -- it is not placed precariously on the bottom edge.

http://cumpiano.tripod.com/Home/Article ... block.html

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:51 am 
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I live in morbid fear of boring the reader, so please forgive the sea of words. The failure shown in the photo posted appears similar to one of the failure modes noted in the figure below. From the builder's guide I am using (with permission):

Attachment:
Fig16-7rev3.jpg


Quote:
16-3 Cumpiano Hardware Store M&T Joint:

This joint is simple to make and fit, quick to reset or adjust (though not as quick to reset as a double tenon neck), uses common Knock-Down (KD) furniture hardware, and tolerates a surprising degree of error in bolt layout, but is slightly heavier than a butted hanger bolt or dovetail joint. This joint requires careful layout and reinforcement of the tenon for reliable service – it is a good choice for both new builders and those that appreciate the ease of fitting and reduce maintenance cost of bolted neck joints.

Common failure modes for the joint are shown in Figure 16-7, and suggest the following layout guidelines:

- The tenon should be 0.750” thick, 0.967” long, and as wide as possible - a tenon 0.032” narrower than the mortise avoids fitting issues, and if the mortise is milled just shy of the back binding, tenon width is maximized for best leverage for lower barrel nut/neck bolt.
- The lower barrel nut centerline must be placed at least .967” up from the bottom of the tenon and as far toward the cheek as possible to gain enough cross-sectional area to resist tensile failure below the nut or shear failure in line with the barrel nut.
- The upper barrel not is not load bearing unless the lower bolt is loose or a failure occurs; however, it is the secondary load path for neck loads and should be placed a minimum of 1.25” from the lower barrel nut centerline to prevent tensile failure.

Reinforcement: To prevent bearing failure in shear from overtightened bolts or abuse, the tenon should be reinforced with .080” cross-grain wood (adequate) or .070” (sanded to .063”) carbon fiber unidirection sheet stock (better) beyond the barrel nut holes and inset into the tenon. This joint is easily milled with a table saw using 12mm ply or MDF offset fence as shown in Figure 16-8 and 16-9.

Hardware Considerations: Standard 3/8” x 3/4” x ¼-20 barrel nuts give adequate bearing surface and are of sufficient diameter to avoid excessive bearing loads. Standard 50mm x ¼-20 KD hex head bolts are used for the bolt, and a 5/16” bolt hole gives adequate adjustability and tolerance for misalignment. The loss of tenon material from the oversized bolt holes is of no consequence, provided the tenon is reinforced as noted above. A tension (Belleville) washer may be used under the head of the bolt to provide a tension preload on the bolt with seasonal relative humidity changes, but a thin flat washer should be used between the Belleville washer and the neck block, suggesting the depth of the neck block counterbore be adjusted for the added hardware.

Note: In service, I have not seen the requirement for this precaution, provided the neck bolts are adequately torqued…a guitar seeing extremes of RH swing sufficient to compress the neck block material and allow neck movement will likely have a host of other issues (top/back cracks, viable setup & playability, etc.) before neck bolt issues become evident. Luthiers should consider suggesting more frequent inspection of neck bolts for instruments using this and other bolted joints and subjected to repeated wide swings in RH.


The carbon fiber reinforcement I used for the tenon on my parlor guitar is inserted into a 1/16" slot...I will try to find a photo that shows the reinforcement and placement of the barrel nut holes (I left my camera in the shop! Dust!!!).


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These users thanked the author Woodie G for the post: J De Rocher (Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:31 pm)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:17 am 
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Someone said (maybe Terence) on another thread that part of the luthiery job is to learn a method and how to execute. Sorry I'm lazy and paraphrased so any misattribution is my fault. But the gist of this is correct. Dave Farmer and I were discussing via PM that execution is probably more a factor than the basic concept. In my case I prefer the butt joint. What I have discovered is that I DO NOT use aluminum inserts - aluminum and steel is not a smart combination for a few probably obvious reasons. I use Hillman Group steel inserts, thread them into the heel and set them with structural epoxy.

Image

It's easy to fit, floss, adjust neck angle, take apart and rock solid from my observations. Is it the best all-around joint? Nah, I don't think there is such an answer, but I find it works well. Check back with me in a hundred years and I'll let you know how its going ... ;-).

Andy



These users thanked the author AndyB for the post (total 2): IanC (Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:14 pm) • Terence Kennedy (Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:32 am)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:17 pm 
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Koa
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what I haven't seen discussed is the following concept: woods and metal react differently...when it's humid wood swells, metal doesn't...when it's dry and hot wood shrinks, metal swells...

in the amounts of materials being discussed here, I think we can pretty much eliminate any changes in the metal as being an issue, and that leaves only one variable: the wood.

of course the stresses put upon the fasteners (holding guitar by neck, etc.) play a big part also.

a 3/16" fastener is only 25% smaller than a 1/4" fastener, and what really the issue is not the fastener, but the size of the insert it threads into. too boot, I would think the finer thread pattern would create other issues like stripping or breaking over time because of the metals heating up more as torque is applied, and in this case a 1/4" fastener would have far more strength to resists these issues (can't count how many 3/16" 8x32 machine bolts I've broken over the years)

the addition of stringers into the tenon seems like the most logical solution to the real issue: the tenon breaking...

obviously the reference to Cumpiano's statements about placement holds water.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:48 pm 
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Terence Kennedy wrote:
With proper reinforcement I think the barrel bolt joint is very reliable but there are certainly alternatives that are just as reliable for a flat top.

Terry's reinforcement makes a tenon with barrel bolts 100% fail safe as does a 1/2" through dowel. Terry's looks prettier.

I like the fact that barrel bolts swivel allowing a little room for error in the hole angle through the head block.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:40 pm 
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I used barrel bolts on my in progress first build. The heel is a butt join to the body, with a 1/2" dowel placed vertically into the heel before it was glued to the neck shaft. A 10mm hole was then drilled vertically, and off-center, for the barrel bolts. This left about 3/16" of the dowel for the barrel bolts to bear against. A piece of dowel keeps the upper barrel bolt in place. I didn't take any pictures of the process, but this one might make my explaination a bit clearer.
Image
The access hole through the neck was plugged with a dowel when the FB was glued on.

Alex


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