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I've been using z-poxy, and I've been happy with the results, but I was wondering if there was a faster alternative. By the time you put 2 or 3 coats on, with 24 hours in between, well, I start to get impatient

Thanks in advance

Steve

Anything water based will be faster however you won't get the grain "pop" that epoxy offers. There certainly are trade offs.

Shellac/egg white and wood dust is pretty fast too.

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Timbermate is my second choice to Zpoxy

I pretty much have dismissed the WB clear fillers -- many coats and when you have enough on dark woods you can start to see the silica.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

CA.

Steve when I used Z-poxy I found that I could sand and re-coat after 8 to 10 hours if the ambient temperature was above 70 deg F and even shorter as the temperature increased.

Fred

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I've used CA as a pore filler enough (8 of 12 guitars) to decide stop using it for pore filling. Once you fill the neck and guitar (using a full face respirator) you need to vacate the shop for several hours, leaving an exhaust fan one. I've never been able to fully fill with one coat of CA so repeating is needed, thus leaving the shop again for a few hours to let the fumes exhaust....

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Why the rush?
Timbermate or any old waterbased filler will be quicker but if you want the grain depth to show in the finish,
epoxy is it. West for me. It's even slower but it is perfectly clear and doesn't shrink back as a few others and
myself have noticed about z-poxy after a year or so. I'll even use Lepages from HD for necks where I want to
even out the grain. Most fillers will subdue the grain, epoxy makes it stand out.
Ken

Shellac and wood dust works great for me.
The shellac imparts some "pop" to the figure.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

I'm with the "why the rush" school. The build process is by far the time consumer. 3 days for a magic pore fill is a small time dent. After that, I spend way more time with spraying, sanding, spraying, finish sanding and buffing. I get it though. It sucks that it takes 8-12 hours to cure one coat of epoxy when our finishes dry in 30 minutes (I did not say cure)

I've had good luck with one coat of z-poxy and a wash coat of thinned z-poxy using the method linked below. I find it goes pretty quick and I love the way it pops the grain.

viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=39046&p=511914&hilit=razor#p511914

My personal experience seems to mirror Todd Stock's. This is a preference thing. I don't want any pores showing. I know that no matter what I do, if there is a surface imperfection, the finish is eventually going to sink into it. So I'm going to (a la Todd) put 3 coats on. So I have something to work with. Sand back but not all the way to wood. But here is the rub. There cannot be thick and thin areas. Or you will sand through the finish on the "humps". It's not an easy process.

The beauty of epoxy is that it does not shrink. Nada. Three coats means three thin, even coats. As Todd suggested, work that first coat and work it and work it till it so completely fills every pore. Work the second coat too. Carefully sand between coats. Third coat should be thin. Then a wash coat. Make sure you minimize ridges at at each stage

I use prestec polyester. 3 coats 20 minutes apart then wait 24 hours and level sand and apply any finish you like.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

To Fred's point I typically keep my shop at 72F and could sand the Z-Poxy after only 6 hours.

Over the years my approach with Z-Poxy or West morphed as I thought that I am understanding the process better.

One of the big challenges initially with ep*xy pore filling is getting the stuff to stick into the bottom of the pores. Mirroring Mike Doolan I played around with the viscosity and it helped me a great deal.

My first coat is intentionally thin as in just mixed but not thinned with anything. My only goal is to get the thin stuff to line the bottom of the pores. Once the bottom of the pores have filler in them subsequent coats will stick much better since ep*xy seems to like to stick to itself.

My second coat was thickened with silica to the consistency of cold cream and then slathered on, pressed into the pores and either sanded back to wood or I would leave a thin coat on the entire surface. Most of the time now I can get a complete fill in two sessions messing with the viscosity AND understanding that initially getting the stuff to stick in the pore bottoms is not all that easy and seems to work better with thin viscosity filler.

I've never witnessed ep*xy pore filling shrinking over time and I have some example here that are 8 years old now and smooth as glass.

Do you spray it?

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I use Z-Poxy. I am suspect of the bond between it and nitro. I think I'm going to try a shellac method next time.

Sorry Steve. A little off topic.

Brian. Tell us more please!

Start some more guitars to eliminate the boredom while waiting.

Brian, some more details on the polyester steps??? Also, can this be used to glue/fill around inlays? I am too allergic to use epoxy.

Ken, I believe it was you previously reccomending Hood lacquer based grain filler. Going back a few years.
Did you end up having issues with this product? I used it a few times and other than the nitro stink it was fairly easy and effective.

B

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

I found that after two coats on dark wood the silica began to haze - turned out to be unexceptable for my needs.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

What finish do you use over the epoxy? How long do you let it cure before you buff?
I spray nitro over epoxy and wait 1 month before buffing. So three days at the start is kinda irreverent, considering its gonna sit so long...3 days to get epoxy in the pores and not shrinking back is a bargain.

I used sytem 3 SB112 with fumed silica expander for several years and replaced that with this due to some of the same things in the OP.

The polyester I use is sprayed. It smells bad just like epoxy but is non flammable so it is a lot safer to spray then most finish products. It is very forgiving as to mix ratios unlike some epoxies but shelf life of the MEKP catalyst is kinda short. It can be tough on spray guns and there is quite a bit of cleaning to be done between coats. 3 wet coats will usually fill the pores in anything and it has 0 shrink back. It is far easier to level sand than epoxy.

I typically will spray it one day and then the next morning I will drop fill any gaps etc with fresh mixed product from a pipette. It will chemically self bond out to at least 24 hours without any problems. The next day it is ready to level sand and top coat (although my work schedule does not allow that, it usually sits for 3-4 days at my shop).

It is purple in color before being activated but once the MEKP is added and mixed it changes to a light caramel tint (very slight color). So this means that just as z-poxy you either leave it only in the pores when you level sand or you leave a thin coat everywhere. I opt for the thin coat everywhere as it has great sealing properties. I do recommend a barrier coat under it on oily tropical woods like coco and such. Simtec has a product for this but I just use a wash of thin CA which is both cheaper and quicker.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

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Wash coat of CA? Wow. Do you put it on the top too? (The polyester)

Thanks for the info Brian

No, i do not use polyester on the tops of acoustic guitars.

I only use the CA on oily tropical woods like rosewoods. Mahogany etc just gets the polyester.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I found a good deal on a UV cure system about a year ago and tried it on a guitar, but hated how it sprayed and looked once I went through the process. With that said, I've been using the UV cure pore filler portion of the system on all of my guitars and it's amazing! I spray Nitro over it to finish the instrument, but the entire pore fill process takes a total of 1.5 hours!

http://www.cureuv.com/uv-cure-wipe-on-g ... quart.html

I spray a wash coat of shellac on the bare wood to start out. Then apply the clear gel poor fill. This is done exactly like one would do with Zpoxy. (Very thin) I cure it with the UV light for about 60 seconds then do a light level sand with 320 grit, and. Repeat the process two more times. After the third poor fill and cure, I then scuff with 220 and begin my nitro application.

I thought the UV system was a total loss after I used the topcoat on a test guitar and hated it, but now that I'm using it for the poor fill step, I love it and will continue to use it on all of my guitars. It dries crystal clear and rock hard, with zero shrink back. All the benefits of Zpoxy without the wait.

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Chris Alvarado
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