Official Luthiers Forum!

In lieu of hijacking my friend Hesh's thread on business for luthiers, I thought I'd start a new one.

I've been a marketing/ad guy for some 30 years now, playing with the big kids like Pepsi, Chrysler, Colgate, and agencies like BBDO and J Walter Thompson. You can see some of my history and work here. http://itaintrocketscience.ca

And if anyone here has any questions about marketing and advertising their wares, I'd be happy to entertain them. That's not to say that I'm gonna have all the answers, far from it, but perhaps we can get some discussions going that can benefit everyone.

Steve

Any ideas for promoting a car club beyond having a newsletter and a Facebook page?

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Geez Chris, here I am just dipping my toe into selling guitars and you've already expanded the brief to cars

Off the top of my head, I'd go PR. Newspaper, TV and radio coverage of any events you might have. Car clubs can be pretty serious eye candy for TV and newspapers.

Any input welcome.
I've recently started a small business selling builds and repairing fretted instruments.
Had a showing at a craft fair, (which was great, 2 orders and several repairs) left my details with the local music shop and music schools, got lots of business cards which I hand out and put in with repaired instruments, and a Facebook page.
I've already had work through the music shop and word of mouth.
Also plan on advertising in the local paper (covers 120 miles or more)
Thinking maybe trade magazine?
(Hesh's class is a little out of my way.....)

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Back at ya Steve!

I've spent a day with Steve and I'm also a marketing guy and Steve really knows his stuff - highly recommended!!!!

Colin, I think you've got 2 separate issues. Building and repairing. Let's stick with repairing for the moment, cause that's probably the simpler of the 2.

Your first issue is awareness. "Hey everybody, look at me!"

I think you're right in terms of trying to generate word of mouth. It's not just cheaper than paid media. It's more valuable. Anyone can place an ad, but actually generating favorable word of mouth means you're doing something right.

Rather than going for paid media, why not place an ad in the British equivalent of Craigslist or Kijiji? You might also want to include an offer, say a discounted rate on setups for the next month. It'll generate some cash flow, though probably not a ton, and it's a way to generate awareness and the next important thing, trial. Which, in turn, leads to more favorable word of mouth, in one of those lovely virtuous circles that marketers are so enamored of.

If you do go with an ad in Craigslist or equivalent, I'd put it in the guitars for sale section rather than Services. In my experience, guitarists aren't always thinking about improving what they already own, but they're ALWAYS looking for their next guitar

I tried both in Austin. Absolutely no response, not sure why.

I was intending to work out of my home, doing only simple work like setup and refrets, since in reality that's all I could do given the space. I made business cards, handed them out to whoever I feel has a shot at (musicians, stores, etc.) and posted craigslist ads. Either Austin people do not need work done on their instruments, or there's too many people working on instruments to support any newcomers.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Unfortunately, I see this a lot. It is very hard to establish a personal services business (and in general people hire YOU for repairs, not a company or anonymous brand) if you are new to a community and don't already have broad and established relationships. This is especially true in larger market with established vendors who DO have these relationships in place.

I have rarely seen passive marketing like a website or craigslist adds overcoming this. I also don't think it bears too much on how personable you are, so don't keep beating yourself up over that.

Since you are at UT I assume you are not hoping to establish a repair business as an indefinite long term future, but rather as a source of side income while you complete a degree in something else. It is possible that the challenges of establishing the necessary relationships required to sustain this kind of business make it an unworkable option for a temporary or part time endeavor, especially for someone with no roots in that community.

If the repair business IS your long term goal, perhaps you should focus your effort on building relationships in the community before setting up your own shop. You may have to try to find work in an established shop with a good reputation, no matter how poorly paid or exploitive. Perhaps you can exploit the ready made community at UT. Offer to do repair work for professors for free or cost.

Again, in my experience a person services business can be helped and supported by advertising but rarely created that way. Creating the relationships that feed you clients is a necessary first step. YMMV.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It''s true, I just don't see how I can establish repair as a long term goal, especially when the rewards can seem rather low, the fact that my skill is about as valuable as making paper airplanes to people doesn't help. Community involvement in Austin seems hard and to put it bluntly, there's not a whole lot of desire by people here to involve in community, unless you want to get into left wing politics (something I really want to avoid).

I just thought it seems more rewarding to put effort into something that I know is attainable (rather than the loosely defined goal of making enough friends to have a repair business). As for working at a repair shop, if Guitar Center won't hire me, I doubt anyone else would... I could at least do something that I know I will do well in.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

as a preface let me say I've been out of the music scene for over 15 years...

that being said, I can say that Austin is a tough market...sure, music capital of the world...

back in the day you were lucky to make enough money to pay your costs of playing a gig...simple supply and demand...hell of a lot of 'musicians' who want the work, and only so many gigs to play. the whole goal was being seen and hopefully signed/supported by another...

anywho, I bet there is still a hell of a 'starving musician' scene around (you know, the type that parties all night, dreams of making it big, and mostly relies on the past as opposed to actually honing their skills...and yeah, I have some bitter memories of those times in the past... always have had a job, worked my butt off to pay my way, and been jibbed by those that live off of others for actually taking the time to play 2-3 hrs a day)

point being, you are in an environment that is mostly populated by those that want freebies...and too boot there are already plenty of luthiers here (ever heard of Dan Erlewine?)...

craigslist is a joke...though certainly not to be ignored...

if you pay attention to the websites of 2 repairmen locally you will note they both have endorsements from well known musical figures in town...again, Dan Erlewine and also Straight Frets...

as has already been noted, WORD OF MOUTH...and you have to earn that the hard way...

sorry if you are taking this negatively, I'm certainly not trying to be...I've lived here for 26 years, played the clubs, been on live TV, blah, blah, blah...seen this place grow from 3 stop lights on 360 north from MoPac to Westlake drive to the debacle it is now...but hey, that growth has kept me very busy over the years (well, except for the recession of 2008...that suxored very badly)...

you have a definite uphill battle here, that's for sure...my best advice is to do very high quality work for a fair price and hope the word gets spread...

as far as working out of your home...well that's what Danny at Straight Frets does...nothing wrong with that, and you can deduct a fair amount of costs on your taxes (ermmm...be sure to carefully calculate and document things...the IRS can be a real PITA )

Guitar Center? pfffftttt...at least try to talk to Strait Music or Guitar Resurrection...heck, maybe even try South Austin Music (that d00d is on my hate list for sure).

but again, you are in a town populated by many already...and I hear you on left wing politics...

I have in the past gone to Strait Music and South Austin Music. Both went nowhere. That is about the only two that I know of that does any serious work, and at that I was actually dismayed by how few music shops there are in Austin for a music capital.

I really have no intention of staying in Austin. I plan to leave as soon as I am finished with UT. No idea where that will be, hopefully there's an opening for Geologists in Ann Arbor

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Hey Tai Fu, sorry for being slow in getting back to you. A couple of thoughts.

If you're not committed to staying in Austin, there is no point whatsoever in putting in the blood, sweat and tears involved in starting a business. Cause one of the most important determinants is time. If you're not willing to give it that, don't bother.

I might also suggest that your problem isn't one that marketing/advertising can address. I think the fundamental issue is your offering.

Can you do a great refret? A great setup? If I understand Austin correctly, you're in a pretty competitive environment. If you want to compete with Mark Erlewine, you'd better be really good.

Or really cheap.

And I never thought "cheap" was a compelling proposition in this case.

So are you really good? Or if not, how do you get to be?

I think that's the question you have to answer.

And if it makes you feel any better, my personal point of marketing difference is that I'm cheap. I'm a relatively new builder, and I think I'm making some pretty nice guitars, but my first job is to get them into peoples' hands and to keep building. So I'm gonna sell them for my cost plus not much(TM)

However, I have the great good luck that I don't have to make a living doing this.

If you're going to, I think you have to establish a genuine expertise, that can then be marketed and generate a real living.

If you do have that expertise, then I apologise, but I've gotten the sense from your posts that you don't, or that you don't have the confidence that you have it.

And please, I'm speaking from a great distance here. If you think I'm wrong or full of sh*t, you may well be right, and feel free to push back.

I've been wrong before. I hate to count the times

Steve, your guitars are worth way more than cost plus a jug of Laphroaig, but I also understand about being able honing your skills on someone else's dime, and getting real world feedback on your work. I've done that in the past as well, though not at doing lutherie, and it is invaluable.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I'm just not really sure what the standard is. I have done plenty of fret jobs for various customers, and while my first few isn't as good as my later ones I can say through process modification I have been able to vastly improve it. However compared to anyone from the Earlewine family I seriously doubt I can measure up because they got generations of experience that I never had the chance to have (they started way earlier than I did), so I'm not going to charge his price. I will however charge enough for my skill level, and it's not going to be at the level of 35 dollar setups.

Confidence isn't something I'm good at because I really lack honest feedback, so I typically assume the worse ones.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

My best form of advertisement has been word of mouth, hands down. That being said, thanks to word of mouth some of those "wannabe luthiers" and places like Guitar Center, who crown an unsuspecting and incompetent salesman to the ranks of "Technician", all of which ruin peoples instruments, while charging to practice something they don't even have a good understanding of to start with, let alone the right hands, my business has been growing faster by the month.

In the music industry there is a saying: There is no such thing as bad press! IE if they are talking about you then word of your existence is getting out, and most people with any interest in the story will seek out more information on the band, and also spread the word. That will not work for craftsman and most other trades though, so you should be able to deliver great to exemplary results before you even try advertising, as it may do more harm than good.

Tai Fu, now that your website is back up and I looked through it, I can see how it may not help your business very much. Not that mine doesn't have some problems too, but yours needs more details on what you do, pictures in relation to the topics > Your picture gallery is not in any order anyone can follow... There are public comment areas where no one has commented, which you should not have unless you have a large enough following to warrant it, People may see your website as a reflection of your guitar work, and therefore look elsewhere. The name "Typhoon Guitars" is awesome though and fitting your real name and the fact that you are from a place where typhoons are common[:Y:] !

I tried just about every software and template system out there to make my site, and did not get anything I liked, or the control I wanted, and ended up coding the whole thing by hand in a text editor, with lot's of help from forums and sites dedicated to web design: http://www.rdelutherie.com Lucky for me I am also proficient in graphics applications, which helps a lot.

I am sure both Steve Denvir and Hesh will have to agree: "Flash is Cash!"

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

Looks like I need a competent web designer to work for me. I'm not so good with making a catchy design. I suspect most who are good at the craft aren't good at the coding part.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I like that, Flash is Cash!

I struggle with website development too and finally ended up learning to use RapidWeaver enough to get something up and that's what our site was built with.

No flash, yet.... and since I keep getting older every next day I may never get to flash but people are attracted to movement. Something else that gets attention is guitar porn! In a previous business I would change my homepage pic monthly using interesting instruments that I had repaired and asked the current stewards (owners) of if I could picture their axes.

I hope our friend Steve does not mind me participating in his thread, mine went south yesterday so I am currently threadless.....

Here's some food for thought about how you might approach a web site and what it looks like:

We all have a story to tell. Some may have a very strong story about their experience and accomplishments, some about their facility, some about famous clients, etc.

Consideration should be given to imagining ourselves in the shoes of a wayward guitar player who's ax is broken. What do they want to see and how to they want to see it?

We talked about doing warranty repairs so that the authorization is a "credential" of sorts. Folks, prospective clients may think and believe that if this company or that company places their trust and faith to use their name in these Luthiers that this is a confidence inspiring thing. On the other hand if someone prompted that they are Ov*tion Authorized I would run away fast....

Balancing what we believe our story should be in terms of where our story is strongest, our strong suit if you will AND taking into account what we would want to hear if rolls with the client are reversed that's what a good web site should do!

Consider repeated themes too so that your website, business cards, what ever all have a theme to them that inspires confidence and "stability" of the business. No one wants to make the mistake of using a fly by night.

The message should be capable of being driven home at a "glance" without having to read War and Peace.... this from me....

We kept getting asked if we work on electric guitars and I noted that and chalked it up to a website deficiency on our part. To remedy this I added a pic of a nice tobacco bursted 70's 335 to our site and have not been asked about working on electrics since. I personally love working on electrics but I love the variety even more.

This is also an example of my sincerely held lifelong belief that Mr. and Mrs. Customer will tell us what they want one way or another, we just have to be keen to be listening and listening and listening....

If your strong suit is lots of experience highlight that first and foremost. If you have a story to tell that is not very compelling such as you don't do this or that don't talk about your weaknesses. Highlight your identified value proposition, your strong suit and avoid the rest would be my suggestion. I also think that the working out of the apartment thing could be countered if it makes sense why you work out of your apartment. As such highlighting that you are a college student fills in the blanks, makes folks understand your situation better and also sets their expectations accordingly AND it's an honest thing to do too - always a good idea to keep it honest. You may lose some business over the apartment thing but I suspect you will lose less if you let it be known on your web site that you are a college student. Folks may feel like they are making a contribution to your education and that will give some a warm and fuzzy to be able to help.

Tai Fu you will be working out of your apartment is this correct? That's a bit harder to do and can be at a loss in terms of inspiring confidence since brick and mortar is often viewed as a ticket to ride, so-to-speak. But it can be done and I did it initially with my first repair biz out of my home. A lot will depend on your ability to have meaningful dialogue and "qualify" prospects on the phone before you decide and they decide that you want to let them into your space. Some caution is advisable too, lots of folks have angles these days and the world is not always a safe place....

Idea: Find a music store that does not do much in the way of repairs and partner with them offering to cut them in on the proceeds in exchange for the space and proper business address. Always maintain your own autonomy too unless you run into a very exceptional music store situation. Elderly Instruments in Lansing is one of these exceptional situations where great work is always the goal which is not always the case with music stores.

I'm not sure, I think all I can really find that doesn't do repairs in Austin is pawn shops. I doubt they are even remotely interested in repairs at all. I have found however that they are selling instruments that are in an unworkable condition (total hack jobs, etc.) at unreasonable prices (basically 80% of its new retail price) and they won't go lower. I tried to buy a Bosch Colt from a pawn shop once, they wanted 89 dollars for it. They were willing to go down to 50 dollars, until I discovered that the height adjustment mechanism is totally stripped (meaning it won't work, I would not be able to use the fine adjustment thing). I said I will only pay 30 dollars for damaged item like this and they refused to budge.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

When Mc Donalds starts paying $15 an hour the lutherie field might become less competitive.

No offense, but it doesn't sound to me like you need anything at all. You're a geologist (or will be) in Texas during the biggest oil and gas rush since the 20's. In a few years you'll have zero interest in doing setups and will probably have a job with an oil company paying you enough to make you a prime candidate for buying one of the $6k luthier guitars the rest of us are trying to sell.

Starting a repair business may have seemed like a good way to pay your way through school, but I think you'll find it is not. By all accounts it is a highly competitive boutique business that requires carefully cultivated business relationships that people like David C and Chris P have been building for decades. I don't know their ages, but they both imply they have been repairing guitars since the 70's.

I assume that you love guitars and that is why you want to do that rather than work at a bar, or Walmart, or as a TA, etc. But I think worrying about websites, perfecting your craft, acquiring tools, etc is not just a full time endeavor but could take years to really start paying off (if ever). That doesn't really sound compatible with being a full time student planning on moving on in a couple of years.


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Honestly, in Taiwan it was a pretty ok option because every other jobs pay so low it's actually better working at Walmart. My Walmart job here pays better than most management jobs in Taiwan (and you get paid time and a half if you work over 40 hours). If that's the worst job I can get in America I think it will only get better. Taiwan's market is a bit like a small town... The few luthiers there are pretty incompetent so for most expats, I was their only option.

That being said, it is why I decided to go back to UT, they have one of the best Geology school in the world, and I'm already in it. Though once I'm in a position to buy a 6000 dollar luthier guitar, I won't be buying that but tools and stuff to make one. I don't play guitar so a luthier guitar is of little use for me. It's more about the build rather than the product. I will want to build up a machine shop though...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I am so hoping for that, it just may weed out some of the hacks!

Hesh, after finding out how much warranty work pays, I decided instead to have an explanation on my site why I don't do them. McDonald's and Walmart may just pay better Than Fender and Gibson for warranty work. You are right though, people see it as some major credential, but don't realize that it is mostly limited to hardware swaps and small stuff. Correct me if I am wrong, but anything major is sent back to them and exchanged rather than repaired.

Fenders are not a major achievement in lutherie, but rather in manufacturing, marketing and sales. One day when I was working at the Washburn custom shop, a higher up from management showed up to make us work faster and harder, and accidentally revealed that the guitars we were making and selling for around $1200 (just less than what luthiers were charging at the time) had an all inclusive cost of around $147 each to make, and their Korean counterparts only $65! I could not Buy the parts and materials for a comparable one under $300 at the time. I was making $7.50 as a department head, my crew around $6.20 each, their salesmen over $25 and the minimum wage was $5.85 if I remember correctly. Needless to say, that manager/co owner who showed up in a BMW 6 class M-Alpine, ended up doing the opposite he came to do, and got an ear full from disgruntled employees to top it off, and the non-disgruntled ones switched sides right then and there.

I see a lot of misleading information on all kinds of websites and advertisements of businesses of every which Kind like: "We sell more than the other guy's", "Larger warehouse than X", "Greater selection", "Combined NN+ years experience", and of course the famous client list on the front page, most of them lacking important details, that rewritten should look like this if they were honest:

"We sell more than the other guy's because our salesmen are much pushier, and secretly tag on upgrades you didn't ask for", "Larger warehouse than X, haphazardly crammed full of lower quality stuff", "Greater selection of factory rejects" and "Combined NN+ years experience, counting the incompetent people we fired, and the just slightly better ones we still have" and finally "These 5 famous guy's who were in town for a show and had no other option, these guy's who gave me a try but never came back, and this really famous one who sued me for ruining his stuff".

The real sad part is that all to often people do not read between the lines and get second and third opinions, and fall victim to "The Hype" all the time. I try to be honest and informative and it has it's advantages. To keep it short I get way less "Riff Raff" and more educated clients, less complaints on my prices and in the last few years not one who stiffed me out of payment, and no theft.

I have found that "Quality over Quantity" may not have the dough flowing in as much and as fast, but it makes life easier.

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

That is the name of the game with big companies, produce stuff at vastly below retail prices. That way if there's any warranty problem they just replace the stuff rather than fix it. It is also why they can afford to bandsaw all the stuff that doesn't pass QA.

Fender has more in common with Ford than actually building good products. Basically Fender found a way to mass produce electric guitars using cheap materials, but also market it to a wide audience. They did not use maple and ash because of some magical inspiration of tonality, but simply because maple and ash was cheap compared to mahogany. They also used flat sawn wood for the same reason. Everything about a Fender was cost, not sound. If Leo Fender were around today the Strat would have been made out of plywood with Formica neck, cheap ceramic magnet pickup and imported pots. Fender amps would also have been solid state all the way.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

So far I have not heard that Leo Fender is dead, and if he is not dead than he must be very old. He and some other guy started G&L guitars, the "L' is for Leo of course. G&L's are better than Fender's. Leo realized his mistake in selling the company, got back in the game (much later) and had to up the quality to compete.

Whenever someone asks me if they should buy a fender, I tell them to look into a G&L, as it is the real Fender now.

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

Leo passed away Mar 21 1991