Official Luthiers Forum!

Rather than distracting from Hesh's Business thread, I am going to start a new discussion here. It was sparked by this observation from Ken:



Good question, Ken. As a Silver Level repair tech for Taylor, I have some experience with this issue both good and bad.

As for the good... Taylor made it pretty easy to get Bronze and then Silver certification via an online course. They are very helpful over the phone with repair questions and parts, and although Taylor guitars sound very average to my ear, they are well-made and generally quite easy to work on with the exception of the poly finish.

The bad... Anyone who has ever watched the Olympics knows that the Silver goes to second best. Taylor won't provide a way to get Gold certified except for long term friends of Taylor and by invitation only. Because of this, I don't even display my Silver certificate. Also, Taylor has a subtle arrogance about their guitars IMO that can be insulting to skilled luthiers. Frankly, my fretting skills and techniques far surpass those seen in their training video on the subject, and yet I was recently cautioned in a group email to refrain from telling customers that I was certified to do fret work (which I do not.) The general attitude seems to be that sending guitars back to Taylor for "in-depth" work (such as crack repairs and refretting) is the way to go.

And then there is Martin. I have tried repeatedly to get Martin authorization and they won't even talk to me, despite my sending them photos of impressive restorations I've done to very damaged instruments. I assume this is because I don't run a brick and mortar retail store, although there is no one within 45 minutes to an hour of my location who is authorized. The most cooperation I've had from Martin regarding a repair was telling me to buy super glue from Amazon to repair a loose bridge on one of their Formica topped guitars. And yet I have customers who pay me to do warranty work because they would rather have my skills than have someone else do the work at no cost to them. I've also fixed screw-ups made by "authorized" shops.

I haven't even tried to talk to Gibson.

As you can see, I have some frustrations with big company authorizations. I suppose this is just part of the reality for small one man shops, but it is one more hurdle among dozens that just makes it more difficult to make a living. You would think that these companies would realize that we are supposed to be on the same team... providing the best service to their customers and instruments.

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It will probably be alright.

In the 80's I was an authorized Fender and Gibson service guy. To get the Fender nod, the local Fender rep simply had me fill out paperwork. Since my shop was in a Fender dealer, my skills were a "known quantity". The Gibson nod took paperwork and a little "proof" that I had some skills. Both companies had caps on how much I was paid for service work (it was less than my normal rate for clients).

The good: Access to parts at wholesale prices, which I then marked up during repair work. Also, Gibson used to recommend me for mods or repair work. Clients would ship guitars to me, and I would return them when done. I charged normal prices for my services.

Small bonus: Clients were impressed upon viewing my shingle with company logos prominently displayed, and my certificates on the wall.

I tried to get Martin certs - no go. At one time, Schecter had authorized service guys. I was authorized in the early 80's, and then the whole program was dumped about 6 months later. When I closed my fulltime shop in the 90's, I gave up my Gibson and Fender programs.

It's my understanding that times and circumstances have changed a lot since then...

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Gaining authorization to do warranty repair work can be a mixed bag depending on what your expectations are. Much of how your results will go also depends on who you select to be authorized by. I'd repeat that statement but you get the idea.

Some manufacturers are more responsible than others in build quality, desire to have satisfied clients, and what they are willing to do to make it so.

We are Martin and Taylor authorized and specifically selected these two and only these two because of their quality products and desire to provide real value to their clients even decades out after the sale. We would consider others but we are not exactly looking for more work at present either....

Regardless warranty repair work does not pay very well for our market where pricing is far higher than the renumeration from either Taylor or Martin. As such why is being authorized by Martin and Taylor a good thing?

It's a credential that means something in the market and Martin and Taylor owners frequently bring up when they are in our shop that our authorization status is what brought them here even when it is not a warranty issue or repair.

Both Martin and Taylor will only authorize folks who have demonstrated proficiency making this something that has to be earned and cannot be bought....

For us when we started we specifically identified these two companies as having quality products and being quality companies in terms of actually standing behind their clients and since this is how we run our business too it's a good match.

Without naming names..... some producers have terrible reputations for warranty work and renumeration.... and should be avoided at all costs. One manufacturer in particular sells with a warranty and will not honor it in the least possibly ever..... and has earned the very worst reputation in the warranty repair business.

The big point here that I am trying to make is that warranty work will never make you rich, may actually have "opportunity costs" if your local market can get more than what we are reimbursed but there still can be value in doing some warranty work. That value for us is several fold.

First and again the authorization is a credential of sorts that tells the market that they didn't just leave their "baby" with some hack with a 55 piece Craftsman socket set..... The authorizations also permit us to have a source for warranty and even non warranty repair parts with attractive pricing. And lastly if the companies that you represent are hell bent and obsessed on providing the very highest levels of customer concern and "care" and you are too as Dave and I are it can be a good match for all concerned.

Be careful though some manufacturers are not entirely honest with the warranties that they imply.... that they offer when it comes time to actually being their for the clients that they are fortunate enough to have had..... for now....

Getting authorized by Martin is not easy . They want the repair center to be tied into martin and you have to have a dealership or work with one and it is an application process . They are very selective and they follow up on your work.
I have the Martin repair center and I also do work Lowden and Kathy Wingert .

This all takes time and it doesn't happen overnight. Be patient . Martin has treated me very well in the years I have been with them. As Hesh points out some companies are not worth doing work for.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

It may be cold comfort, but the dynamics Hesh describes are not unique to the instrument repair industry. My partners and I are "approved vendors" with several Fortune 500 companies. Each such approval required a long, painful process that basically boiled down to "take it or leave it." Projects we do for these companies are invariably the most complicated and least profitable. The ONLY reason we bother is that having the big names on our client list makes mid-sized corporations more comfortable doing business with us. So, in my experience, these certifications are worth attempting to attain, but mostly as a means of attracting other clients.

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George :-)

Precisely my point.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I emailed Taylor about being an authorized repair guy in Taiwan. They replied that all warranty work was handled through their distributor in Taiwan. I got no luck with them unfortunately.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

If you Google USA guitar repair shops you'll get 1,200,000 ---- why is it surprising that the majors are selective with those representing their brand? Is that not what every single manufactures does?

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

And should be too!!! Branding is super important and as such anyone and everyone who may represent the "single face to the customer" has to be an accurate representative of the client care culture of the manufacturer.

You will never get rich doing warranty repair work but it can be an important credential, a measure of competency when prospective clients have no other, and is very much as valuable as the quality of the company that one does warranty work for.

Dave and I are customer centric to a fault and that's why Martin and Taylor are great fits for us.

WOW Greg. My reply could be yours EXACTLY. I work on all of the "Big 3" and reworked many screw ups by "authorized" techs. I have more work than I can keep up with. I just hired a PT tech with Taylor Silver Cert that doesn't have near the exp I have. Oh well.

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"I've been had again"
Tim Benware
Creedmoor, NC

If it makes you feel any better Greg warranty work for us accounts for less than 2% of our annual sales, it's mouse nuts....

Clients do bring it up from time to time even when they are not seeking a covered warranty repair but I would suspect from my experience that not being authorized is only rarely going to be a deal breaker for most.

I'll add too that we specifically avoided one of the big three because they don't pay well, have predatory practices when it comes to distribution of parts, and their build quality is IME terrible as well. Nothing but lots of issues to fix and very little payment for your time and effort. This feeling is widely held in the trade too.

We stand behind our work 100% and say so even offering a full refund if you are not thrilled. We can't be taking on the liability from a producer who does not value their clients to the same extent so we won't.

With this said for us it's not at all the quantity of warranty repair authorization certifications that we carry but the quality of the companies who produce and ultimately stand behind their very fine products. We've been specifically told that we are a producers eyes and ears and "first line of defense" in the marketplace. To be willing to put oneself in this position we will only do so for producers who completely have our backs in our mutual pursuit of doing what it takes so that our customers have the best customer service experiences of their lives.... I'm serious and I speak of commitment here both with our business and the companies that we represent.

With all of this said if you are getting the picture that warranty repair work is no prize, one has to be careful who they are seen with...., and ultimately it's YOUR business and as such how you wish for your clients to be treated should be a good match with any company that you seek to do warranty repair work for and with.

For all of time music stores all over the country proudly displayed stickers on their front windows saying that they were authorized to do warranty work for perhaps 12 different companies. In reality only several of these companies actually will ever make good on warranty claims without unnatural acts, lawsuits, etc. So why even go there.

I never gave it serious consideration. Mike Longworth asked me to be a Martin authorized repairman a long time ago, but my main interest was prewar guitars which seldom have a warranty anyway.
I don't think it has hurt my business at all.
Given a choice between fixing whisker cracks on a new Martin versus resetting the neck on a 1936 D-28, I'll take the latter.

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John

I have this very bad habit of taking on what I sense in others at times.... This means if a client is a nervous nellie this makes me nervous...

We work on pre-war stuff too even at times with the client present for something simple if we are OK with this and they want to be present. The folks with the very valuable instruments are a very different group to work with for sure. Personally I love seeing the work on the pre-war stuff and they often, not always.... can sound like a million bucks too.

OTOH there is something to be said for simple. Drop it off by noon, go away.... come back around 5:00, try it out, say some appreciated expressions of satisfaction and then go home and enjoy your guitar. Simple!

With some of the collectors the hand holding and seemingly the need on their part to discuss repairs to death can be a pain. The nervous nellies I am speaking of....

We once inadvertently got in the middle of a sales transaction of a pre-war Martin and are sorry that we did. It all went down fine, no one got wounded but our shop was used without really asking us to be a show room for a qualified buyer to inspect the instrument. This puts pressure on our insurance limits, time, and ultimately reputation too and there was nothing in it at all for us, nothing..... Won't do that again.

When I got into this business I thought that collectors might be the best clients. No offense intended but I have now changed my mind after seeing collectors be cheap, with us.... regardless of a half million dollar collection and be pushy with us as if their concerns have more weight that the college student who needs their guitar back for classes.

Don't get me wrong generalizing is never a good idea but my mind is changing as to what my perfect client looks like and it's not eat all what I used to think it was.