Official Luthiers Forum!

I have done setups on several really cheap Chinese plywood guitars recently and the neck sets, extension drop off, fret leveling, and overall alignment was perfect. Truss rods worked well, relief could be easily set and the intonation was right on. Easy to set up.

Looks like they have the carpentry pretty well figured out and probably use a Plec.

I should mention however that they sounded like crap acoustically but not terrible plugged in.

They are breaking the code guys and gals.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Of course. Practice makes perfect.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Practice makes perfect after copying.

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Although I build my own classicals, I wanted an archtop ss and I tried shopping US first, and the prices were just multiples of what I could afford. I got an Eastman, carved spruce top, carved maple back, maple sides and neck and ebony fretboard with gotoh tuners. Quality of build and finish is excellent, although the top is probably a little stiff for acoustic. Sounds great, plays great. I think they are doing a good job. It is pretty hard to compete with their labor rates.

Yes, it's still practice.
And the Japanese showed us that once skill and techniques are learned, then they take them farther.
After all, Japanese woodworkers and stringed instrument builders have been at it since Europe was still in the Dark Ages.
Innovation doesn't just come from the Americas and Europe.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Yeah, I've owned several Ibanez electrics. They kick butt, especially for the price.

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Wah-wah-wah-wah
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The thing is... The vast majority of the chinese guitars were designed to sound the way they did... It's no coincidence that their tops and bracing was extra thick... It's no coincidence that they put heavy brass components (like bolts) into their bridges.. Thick, shiny finishes and veneered wood everywhere.... It's no coincidence that you get what you get out of them...

The other thing is that many of them were more or less designed to "Self destruct" after 10-20 hours of playing.. That's the flat, butted pinned neck joint construction....

Think... Martin, Gibson, and Taylor are a 100% MANUFACTURED product - you could take the line to China and get exactly the same thing.... Sorry - but it's true...

What's happening is that their specifications are getting "Better" - but their price is going up too...

Thanks

The Eastman archtop I have is anything but cheap... It's very well constructed and finished, and still way cheaper than a Gibson.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I have voiced this opinion before on this forum: dollar for dollar I believe that Eastman guitars are the best available.

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

No matter the price I will always buy from my neighbor, as close to home as possible.

In this manner of economic thinking, he will always have a job, the money he spends close to home ensures that I have a job.

Chinese guitars like anything else can be the worse junk or very, very nice and getting nicer all of the time these days too.

We have yet another Eastman archie in the shop to "raise" the action for this specific player. I've seen my share of these and though the recent years they have been evolving nicely. What I'm noticing on this one that is an improvement over Eastman's I've worked with in the past is the finish is now getting pretty thin, nicely thin, just what I would want. I can even see some shrink back in the pores which some may have an aversion to but not me, finish, pore filler, though necessary do impact tone when slathered on.

Another example are the Blueridge guitars. Very nice too and although not at par with Martin in my view they are still great values.

Even on some much less expensive Chinese guitars such as the revival of the Recording King name (not the brand...) I'm seeing bone nuts and saddles as standard fare. Although the bone is very rough, lots of scratches, etc. and looks pretty sophomoric as if it was nut number 11 for a new builder they are indeed bone, an upgrade.

You know at the end of WWII after Japan surrendered we had a guy here who we thought to be a bit of a nut job and didn't know what to do with him. Deming who was an engineer and had ideas such as Six Sigma. So we sent his arse to Japan to teach them how to manufacture..... The rest is history with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Honda, Toyota, and on and on learning from this seemingly American reject how to engineer and build in a level of quality that I would put against anyone. It was not until we had our Opppps moment and "stepped in it...." not recognizing that Deming was a rock star that we embraced his ideas such as Six Sigma.....

Culturally the Chinese and Japanese didn't get along and after WWII with good reason too but the Chinese went to school on Japanese manufacturing and not just US manufacturing and it shows now too.

I buy local and want to support US jobs but I also want to receive the best value for my money even if I am willing to cut local talent and products a bit of slack. I live in the epicenter of the US automotive industry and remember clearly a time when whack-jobs were staking out over passes over freeways here and using high powered rifles to take out drivers of Japanese cars when the US auto industry was once again being a bit of a drama queen and failing in the market place. Remember Chrysler and Lee Iacocca....

Again I support US jobs OR Canadian jobs too by the way since my car is Japanese but built in Ontario. But I am not willing to support junk no matter where it's made and in my way of thinking being a deciple of Jack Welch I believe in being number one or two in all that you do or don't do it.

With this said the US still has the edge with guitars with PRS, Martin, Taylor, Collings, and more coming to mind. Notice I did not mention G*bson and my very reason for referring to G*bson as G*bson... is because I am disgusted at the great story that this company has to tell and instead of taking their proud place at the top of the industry these days their products seem to basically stink... as do the company business practices. Repair guys are well versed in how we can't even get G*bson parts for our mutual clients unless we are affiliated with a G*bson dealer (sell-out, weak kneed retailer...) or wish to pay retail....

I'm not worried about the US (or Canada) losing our edges to China because even though a few of the usual suspect are faltering these days others have rightly assumed their earned position as companies to watch, mirror, and purchase their products. I personally would love to own a Collings and coming from someone who can build my own thank you that's a compliment!

I also wonder if blind allegiance and turning our backs on lesser quality because it's US made or Canadian made is actually helpful to our economies and local jobs in the long run. Can you say bubble.... As such I guess I'm a capitalist (fiscally...) and believe that market pressures and forces need to shake things out as they do.

If it comes to pass the Chinese stuff continues to improve, and it will, then that's an opportunity for the folks who invented this industry to light a fire under our butts and just do even better. I have faith that we can and will.

Would hate to have to play the greatest tune ever written, Smoke on the River, on a Biwa.....

Mr. Jimmyjames has a point..... which is one of the reasons why I buy used stuff.... not new. I know my bucks are going to a fellow citizen.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I'll just say there are some mighty nice Chinese made guitars these days -- seeing, playing is believing, the old stereotype no longer applies. There are several large factories over there where many different brands are made --- those factory leaders/backers or whatever had the wherewithal to hire Japanese management teams to run the plants or at least to get them going. There is no denying the Japanese have mastered the unified concept of first run quality manufacturing and its inherent benefits. As mentioned above I think they (Chinese) are going to get even better. That's not a bad thing, look at the auto industry --- it took a loud and clear wake up call from Japan and Germany to get the USA brands on their current corrected course. When I worked for GM a car lasting 50000 miles was a real big deal!

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

My brother was a salesman for a company where the production workers went on strike. The company brought in scabs. The owner of the company called a meeting to announce how well things were going and the product had never been better even as my brother was spending his day fielding quality complaints from all his customers. I had a production worker tell me once that he came to work one day and found all the equipment they had shipped to Mexico the year before was back on the loading dock because the Mexican workforce just couldn't make it work.

Don't underestimate the value the typical 'line worker' can bring to the table.

That vary thing happened here at the Metaldyne Litchfield plant



Amen to that --- I managed the production floor for many years, the cornerstone of "quality and profit" is a knowledgeable, unified, dedicated front line work force -- the rest of us are record keepers and some times just extra baggage.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Where is live is an aircraft town. Many makers sent work to Mexico. The returned parts were not up to snuff, and shipments were always behind because typical Mexican laborer worked enough hours to live on, and then went home. No 40 hour weeks for them. Now it's all coming back, and the makers are hiring again.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

You guys should read the book "Factory Man". It's about the history of the furniture industry in the US and how it does or does not remain competitive with factories in Asia and other low cost parts of the world. One thing that those low cost countries (especially China) do is called "dumping". This is where they sell products for less than it costs to make them, specifically to drive other companies out of business. I would be very surprised if there is some level of this that is not happening in the instrument industry. The book also talks about how the furniture market was changed by the influence of these low cost countries as well. In the past, furniture was something you bought once and maybe even handed down to your kids. As the low cost countries drove prices down, the furniture designs were changed to drive production costs down...even to the point where the furniture is basically chipboard with a wood colored sticker on it. I think we see a corollary to this in the instrument world as well with some manufacturers making instruments out of synthetic materials and such.

Of course those folks over there can make some decent instruments. I have to believe they are building them a bit heavy to make sure that they don't make guitars that will fail and get brought back to the store. There will definitely come a time when they are making guitars that compete with our top end brands. I have no doubt that they could make instruments of that quality..

Trevor

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Many years ago, the owner of Rigel Mandolins and I were asked to speak at an Asia convention (Association of String Instrument Artisans), and both of us were approached by the Eastman rep to comment on their new Eastman Mandolins. Not wishing to encourage them much we both said "nice" and walked away.
As we walked away, Pete ( the owner of Rigel) said to me, "That is big trouble for me". Rigel is now out of business, in large because of Eastman and my business suffered too.
Glad to be out of the "market" as the world has been flooded by Chinese instruments. They have successfully lowered the standards of everything.
With our blessings...

I've played quite a few and so far nothing I'd take home..... not even close

As I tell my customers all the time, it's not just how nice they are when new but how nice they will be when they are five years old. Just this week I had two Chinese guitars in the shop (one Eastman, one Tanglewood) that I had set up a couple of years ago. Both of them had much higher action than they had previously and if they continue on the present course will need neck resets sooner rather than later. We all know how much fun it can be to reset Chinese necks.

In comparison, two of my handmade guitars haven't moved more than a 1/64" in 2-3 years and sound light years better.

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It will probably be alright.

I am not into retail guitar sales -- but is it the case that a potential buyer is considering a $500-$1000 import or a $2500-$5000+ handmade guitar? That does not make sense to me. It just seems that the Chinese flood of product is mainly a concern for lower lines of Martin, Taylor, etc. (M&T now have Mexican factories to cope) and has like no effect on the boutique makers.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Let me put it this way.
When I was building mandolins and the flood started, many folks would SAVE their pennies to get a very good mandolin. Let's just pick a price of say 3K. You could either buy a very good A model or a cheap Pac-rim F model.
Now, everyone knows Bill Monroe played an F model. Might you not agree that most folks would go for the cheap F model so they could be Bill Monroe?
I'm sure the same goes on with archtop jazz guitars and where else can you get a BRW flat top for 3K with MOT all over it.
That is the glitter market of today. Cheap and flashy or just like Charlie Byrd's. Would that affect "boutique" builders as you put it? Yes, they would have lost that A model sale or a less glittery flat-top that would sound twice as good. One Pac-rim even went so far as to label their brand "The Loar".
Wonder why that would be...

" One Pac-rim even went so far as to label their brand "The Loar".
Wonder why that would be... "

Because their instruments were all loar end?

But given the less expensive option -- didn't the consumer buy what they really needed and really wanted? Seems those buyers are not sophisticated enough to know the value of a custom made instrument in the first place and were being forced into a no option purchase situation. Price point marketing is all over the place. Even Gibson (I know seems many are down on Gibby) does it internally with Epiphone its almost identical import products have been offered for for years and years. Don't get me wrong I have no dog in the fight but who is doing something wrong here? I am assuming there are not six year old's making the goods. This just looks like typical world market supply and demand for all commodities and services. But I realize it hits close to home for some.

BTW the Loar brand thing is indeed despicable. Gibson is known for jumping all over copyright and patent infringement -- this surprises me.

Interesting:
http://www.worldstopexports.com/chinas- ... ports/1952

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I like Bill Collings response to the China guitar glut

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIgGaFre4ck

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/