Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all.

Thanks for help and patience as always. Although I've finished my second and third guitars,, my ffirst, a kmg kit lies shamefully uncompleted! I tried to spray it in black nitro and with zero woodworking or finishing skills it went badly and I've sanded it off! My second two I finished in tru oil which I found easy and was very pleased with the results..

The back and sides are walnut, spruce top mahogany neck and plastic binding.. 14th fret l-00 ..

Plan is to pore fill using the tru oil sanding slurry method.
Sand through to 320 grit..
apply Black spirit stain..
apply tru oil..
scrape back plastic binding..

Any thoughts or tips appreciated..

Mike

At some point I'd like to make a black guitar too so I'm curious to see how it goes. Kind of the antithesis of what I'm all about but there's an idea in my head that won't go away.

-j

Spirit stain will not penetrate the wood if it is sealed with Tru-Oil. Do you want a jet black, opaque finish or do you want to still see the wood grain behind the black stain?

As Barry said, the stain won't penetrate through the Tru-oil, which is essentially a very thin varnish.

I assume by "spirit stain" you mean an alcohol-based dye, such as Feibing's. You could dye the wood first, in which case the slurry would be made from black wood particles, and you could color the Tru-oil with something, such as black artist's oil paint, which is _very_ concentrated and you'd only need a tiny bit. But you never know exactly how it will turn out so the mantra here is "try it on scrap first try it on scrap first try it on scrap first."

A shiny black opaque finish on a guitar is striking but extremely unforgiving of any flaws, so you might consider that issue. Perhaps satin? Or just fix all the flaws? I have done some all-black finishes on maple furniture, but not on a guitar, so I can't give you a schedule that I know will work.

Hesh has made some wonderful all-black guitars, and maybe he'll weigh in with some ideas.

_________________
Tim Allen
"Never hurry, never rest."

One thing to be careful of when considering doing a black guitar is the onslaught of the naysayers who will insist, even though they are wrong as can be.... that a black guitar represents someone who is hiding flaws in either workmanship or the materials. Although this has been a f*ctory practice at times it's just possible that some of us adore black guitars.... and that's why some us take copious amounts of hi-res photos prior to and after finishing....

I am also reminded of how much it seemingly bothered some folks here when I did my first burst...... Sheesh.....

Regarding the finishing some great points already posted above and I picked up on the idea that there are some incompatible products in your plans too such as True oil and stains and True oil and lacquer.

I would suggest a straight nitro finish using Stew-Mac's rattle can black. If you pore fill with epoxy and do a wash coat you can go straight to the rattle can. Three sessions a day with the first two days in a row, waiting a day, and then 3 more coats day three and perhaps a day four with 3 more coats and you should have a great, glossy, black finish.

Here are some old pics of what happens when some of us like a little color in our lives.... The guitars pictured were professionally finished by Joe White and Tony Ferguson.

Maybe you could just take my word for it that my workmanship is flawless and I could just post pics after finishing...

I'm really keen to not use nitro. Another option is the use of a friends airbrush and spray Black shellac and then tru oil over the top as tru oil and shellac seem to work fine together?

I'd be happy to glimpse a little wood under the black like my '38 l-00.. Tried some test pieces with stain and tru oil which I liked but only spruce so no pore fill.

I am thinking your schedule will not yield the results you are seeking. The compatibility issues as mentioned go without saying. If the back and side are going to be black -- with Black Walnut a perfect pore fill is a must -- I'd use Zpoxy total surface cover as opposed to sand back method. I agree that rattle can is the way to go. Vinyl sealer followed with Black lacquer color coats. -- remove masking -- scrape and true edges -- clear coat to desired thickness.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Hi mike,
If I wanted a black finish that would still show the grain of the wood I would start with a solvent based dye stain. This would dye walnut and mahogany and other open pored woods very black. Spruce might not take the stain quite as well, but then again might (test on scrap). Some solvent based dye stains may also mix directly with the tru oil to create a black toned finish which could be applied over the previously dyed wood, but some experimentation would be required to determine the ratio of stain to finish, and whether the particular stain you have will work. Again ,test on scrap.
When trying a new finish making test panels is something even the experts do, and can save a lot of refinishing heartaches.

Yup... that's my default position and very much my point......

True Oil is intended to be the finish in and of itself. When you start considering using it as a pore fill with other things as the finish or as a sealer with other things as the finish I suspect that you will not be pleased with the results.

I understand that you are not keen to use nitro and I remembered after I posted that you are across the pond making Stew-Mac shipments of nitro possibly not something that can even happen, sorry about that.

Might be productive to look into what G*bson used in the early 20th century for guitars and mandos that were black before the advent of nitro.

I have ordered white binding and will be doing the Martin top black as well. This thread interest me allot

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Behlens which I believe is a UK company has been one of my Nitro lacquer suppliers of choice for decades. They have all the coatings one needs to produce a black or for that matter just about any color finish one might desire. Invest in a good respirator mask -- in my opinion nitro lacquer is still one of the easiest to apply and most forgiving finish available.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Well then , do a tutorial on this and since I have one coming up I will be most anxious to study your techniques.

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

We should be an equal opportunity finisher, not discriminating finishes because of their color...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I love the look of a well done black topped guitar. Having done painted finishes on cabinetry, I know that if you aren't exacting in your prep work, a painted finish will show flaws like they were a flashing neon sign! Hats off to those who can do it right!

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I know for a fact that black is THE hardest solid color to do right. Any flaws and imperfection will show up strongly.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I think it's a little odd what everyone says about black showing up imperfections. I've only done 2. No guitars but a uke and a mando.


I was visiting a very well respected archtop and mando maker near me. When I showed him the mando the first thing he said was "What are you trying to hide". Isn't that why makers do bursts and colours. To cover up flaws......... not that mine had any. You can cover up a lot painting it black. You may have to do a bit of drop filling. It's too bad you don't want to do nitro, Mike. Pretty easy. You only need 1 or 2 coats. I'm not sure about putting clear coats of some other finish over nitro though. You might do some tests with a heavy black trans tint in Tru Oil. I'm pretty sure you might be able to get a solid black. May take a couple coats. I use these trans tints.
http://www.woodessence.com/ColorFX-Dye- ... s-C12.aspx
I think SM has a similar product.

IMHO, the worst thing about black is finger prints. Never play your guitar after eating fried chicken.

Good Luck,
Danny

Very nice instruments Danny!

Yeah the car painting guys would also concur that black finishes seem to show imperfections more so than other colors (is black a color).

It used to bother me that the default position of many who approach Lutherie from a woodworker POV (point of view) is that black has to be hiding something. Then folks wanted to buy their very own Black Tigers (my Tiger Myrtle Offerings)... Now it only bothers me on the way to the bank and my bank is one block from by business.

Something else to know is that if the vintage G*bson vibe is what flips your switch, and it's most certainly one of the things that flips mine, black is historically accurate for mandos and L-OO's so suck it up.....

After all guitars are ultimately tools for musicians and in my experience if a guitar is black or not for someone who also likes black guitars pales in importance to how it sounds, how it plays, how well it's made, and if the builder understands their role as supporting the idea.............. you guessed it........... that guitars are ultimately tools for musicians.

If someone likes black instruments go for it - everyone should always be doing what ever they wish!

The "A" I did was inspired by the first Gibson "A" I played many moons ago Hesh. I do like that vibe. That woody tone stuck in my head. Unfortunately I didn't nail it on my one and only mando build.

Your black top (tops? Did you do more than one?) would be my inspiration for doing a guitar. They do have some mojo buddy.

Ummmmmm in my case it is ! lol

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Here is a 1933 L-00 I picked up pretty badly damaged. I put a new back on it, fixed a hole in the side, and repaired multiple cracks in the top. I did not want to refinish the neck because it had such great mojo, so I wanted the body to reflect the old neck. I have been using a local car painter who also builds electric guitars for my finishes, and he sprayed the black, returned it to me while I took off the tape and played with some details, then sprayed a few coats of clear and level sanded it to 2000. I brought it home and played with it, and found that If I stepped right to Meguires #9, the match of new/old was quite good. I filled the back only about 75% so some of the grain would show, and I did not repair all of the dings in the body so that it matched the look of the neck. I think it was quite successful.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/ ... 0428685680

Love the black. I have tried the Feibings with black shellac and it does not look the same as black nitro - not bad, but I personally did not think it looked right.

Ed

The 'old way' was lampblack in Shellac. It was a common finish on the Necks of 19 th century North European guitars, largely to simulate the Necks that were veneered in Ebony. I usually stain the Neck first with Indian ink and then apply the lampBlack/Shellac. The stain just gives a bit of insurance and means you aren't working against a light coloured background.

DAAAAAAAAAAAAMN, THAT'S NICE!!!! I'm working on a black topped archtop guitar, but it won't be half as nice. It also won't be picture ready for at least a month. I'll post a picture then, if this thread isn't long dead. Although, looking at your guitar makes me want to pack up my tools and try my hand at golf!

Here's a black archtop I made some time ago ..... Ultima tinted with Colortone opaque black (40 drops/oz). Not a great shot (used flash). I pre-stained the top with blk aniline for the reasons Michael stated. Would have been better in nitro (hint of blueish inherent in alkyds) but not bad.

_________________
Dave
Milton, ON

While it is black finishes have been obtained in a variety of ways, IMO a lacquer finish is going to be easier and yield better results than what you propose. IOW, if you are trying to find an easier way to get a shiny black guitar than lacquer, I don't think this is going to be it...

That said, if you want to finish with true oil, I suggest a couple modifications to your schedule. Black stain is a different look than black lacquer (or varnish or shellac), and is often called 'ebonized' finish. This is how I would do it:

Black stain (consider Mohawk NGR)
Pore fill with paste filler, tinted black
Stain again
apply tru oil
Scrape

Here's one I did several years ago, it's done with TruOil and LMI's metal acid tints.

I'll post my process if this is what you're looking for.

_________________
A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon