Official Luthiers Forum!

For some years now I have been having a personal debate regarding the ramifications from a business and builder point of view of including an eventual neck reset as part of a standard product warranty with Luthier built steel string guitars.

Let's face it neck resets are something that is best likely to be be expected as something that will eventually be necessary at some point in time for any conventionally or somewhat conventionally built steel string guitar (I am not addressing those who have unique designs that may improve performance when it comes to needing a neck reset). Obviously there are exceptions but what I am attempting to address is the logic behind, or not.... including an eventual neck reset or two.... in a builder's standard warranty.

Looking at what the big guys do such as Martin who has one of the very most liberal and comprehensive warranties in the industry where resets are covered for the original, registered owner even decades out to Taylor who also has an excellent warranty but has engineered the need to jump through one's own sphincter to perform a neck reset out of the picture with Taylor's highly innovative, bolt-on neck joint. We have examples, good examples of what industry standards may be but again these are production instruments....

I won't get into the accounting aspects of decent warranties and the concept of "recognizable revenue" and how warranties are typically funded into the future by the corporate entities in the industry.

In my way of thinking many of the things that might belay the need for a reset in the future such as over building can have a desirability cost to the end product. There is also the idea of abuse and the expected care and feeding of a fine instrument that often is not considered either....

So why then do some of us subject ourselves to the idea that since Martin does it we have to? Martin has stood the test of time with the current iteration of Martin still being an original family member. But most guitar producers can't say this and in the case of say Guild the only thing that remains these days is the brand.

Personally I would prefer to educate clients that warranties are intended to address defects in materials and workmanship and not intended to address repairs inherent to the design and function of the instrument eventually and into time.

Everyone that I know includes a neck reset in their warranty but then there is the issue of our warranties are only as good as we are in terms of not kicking the bucket at some point.... Martin has stood the test of time as a family business and honored warranties made by previous generations of family and company management. Can we say that this will be possible for us too, honestly?

Which brings up the idea that if one of us kicks the Ov*tion (bucket...) so too is our warranty protection for our clients also gone. I know too that some have made arrangements to provide warranty coverage after they are toast too - all things are possible for a price...

But again is a neck reset an "expected" part of instrument maintenance that likely will eventually be necessary or is the need for a reset indicative of defects in the builders materials, design, or workmanship?

There are countless other things that go wrong in time with a guitar that are not covered under warranty such as cracking if the instrument dries out (and at times even if it didn't....) or fret wear where refrets are not covered either because it's expected that things will wear in time.

So here it comes.... the hidden question that this entire long-winded post is attempting to gather the thoughts of others about... Should neck resets be covered under small builder warranties? I'm not talking about institutions such as Somogyi or Fox but the rest of us who may never achieve international notoriety, may produce very fine instruments anyway, and are one person shows not likely to be passing on the trade to anyone else to continue the legacy or assume the warranty liability.... either.

As for me I will be very surprised to still be around and irritating folks come need for a reset on one of my creations.... It makes me wonder if it's honest on my part to offer something that personally I am not on board with the vary concept of a neck reset being something covered under warranty and realistically informed that if I do make it to 90 years of age I likely would not want to be doing this work anymore nor should I - grumpy old man with uber sharp chisel..... Not a pretty picture.

So what do you think? Should neck resets be covered under warranty by small builders? Try to forget what the big boys do and have done and instead consider what the intentions and purpose of a warranty are and if the need for a neck reset in time fit's this criteria. And for some of us is it even honest to offer a warranty that says that 30 years out a neck reset is covered to the original purchaser when at present we may be giving dirt some competition for how old we are....

Thanks!

I could have almost reset a neck in the time it too to read your post. Coulda done 2 Michigan resets

I'm looking forward to seeing where this post goes..

Most of our cars are covered by a 3-5 year warrantee and usually cost what a Traugott or Somogyi start at. A new home is usually covered for 1 year.

Why should a guitar some how be expected to be covered forever?

M

I say no!!!

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

As surprising as it may seem to some I can craft a post like that in 5 minutes or less. Not sure if I would want to tell the world that one's standard for the quality of their neck resets is to spend 2 1/2 minutes on it..... Please note smiley face - I am joking with you!

So what do you think - should neck resets be covered under a small builder warranty and/or has Martin's liberal warranty kind of sort of screwed the pooch for the rest of us?

I personally do not. I consider a reset an inherent fact of the SS lifespan. I offer a 3 year warranty on my budget guitars. I figure anything that is my fault will turn up by then, and everything else will certainly be humidity/abuse related.

What I do, however, is use a bolt on butt joint with the tongue glued only around the edges (for shear strength) so that a reset is as painless (cheap) as possible.

I used to do a bourgeois style double bolt on, but found that they would need resets within months. The convenience of a ten minute reset was outweighed by clients not knowing that it needed to happen, and thus having guitars out there in poor but undiagnosed condition.

Hence the compromise with the bolt on butt, glued tongue...

Good for you Ed and I am leaning to not covering neck resets either.

There is also the topic of hidden warranties and I most certainly subscribe to that with a promise to restring and clean-up any instrument that I made at any time for as long as I am loofiering. I saw and see it as a way to gather data on how my stuff is doing AND further opportunity to hammer home the need for clients to humidify in the winter. Self-serving maybe but it's a win/win for everyone. Stings are cheap, relationships priceless.

I never even considered neck resets as being under warranty on my builds. Upon purchase, I noted on the receipt that the client was entitled to a free setup within a year as the guitar settled in. I would of course offer quick repairs or other services at a slightly reduced rate along with my builds to reward their patronage.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Hesh, thanks for the laugh its been a hectic couple days and you brought a little fun into it.

Chris I like the set-up idea too, good going and I may borrow it from you if your don't mind?

Jeff glad that you had some fun, me too. There was a time on the OLF when there were lots of laughs every day seemingly and I miss those days. It was not uncommon to be discussing someone's Canadian Corn Flakes that they had for breakfast and of course where sick minds can take that subject or any subject for that matter. I still have my sick mind just need an application for it.....

My guitars have the double tenon bolt on neck, which have been very stable, and have not come back for neck resets. The only reset that I have done was due to lack of humidity abuse, in which the top sunk in, and after weeks of re-humidification did not return to it's original dome. Lucky for the owner that the top did not crack. As a courtesy I re-humidified the instrument and actually had to reset the neck forward a touch, opposite to the normal reset.
So to answer your question, I will reset a neck at my expense as long as I am able and the instrument is returned to me. But the cost of shipping and insurance both ways is the responsibility of the customer. So most likely, they would save money having it reset at their own expense at a local shop, since it is a total bolt on neck.
In reality, a neck reset would fall under normal wear and tear.

Chuck

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I think I am with the others on the year free set up, discounted repairs, and 3 year type of warranty. This is something that kind of irks me about the guitar building world. I have done a lot of other types manufacturing of wares for people and companies. I have built counter tops, kitchens, furniture, etc. all of this stuff the warranty rarely even gets discussed. These items are commonly much more expensive than say a $4000 guitar. Yet, I feel that the guitar buying community expects lifelong warrantees, as well as a "perfect" guitar, hours of communication, tons of emails, pictures, design etc. I have seen and built some custom (aviation) stuff that I felt was not good, but deadlines didn't allow for perfect. When the customer received it and saw x,y, or z, they chalked it up to being handmade. On the other side of the coin, I have seen some posts on the AGF about a gentleman who felt wronged by a guitar company because the kerfed lining had a chip in it the size of about a quarter of an eraser head. Sometimes I feel like the guitar buying community can be very entitled and have very unrealistic expectations. Now I have yet to have any of these types of issues with my builds. Still I sometimes feel that because of the competitiveness of the market and us as a the masochistic people pleasing types have fostered this entitlement. I have shifted the way I do things now, to reduce this madness for myself. However, I do still see other builders beating their heads against the wall with difficult customers who seem to be multiplying exponentially.

Couple pics of the FB tenon Chuck?

'I used to do a bourgeois style double bolt on, but found that they would need resets within months. The convenience of a ten minute reset was outweighed by clients not knowing that it needed to happen, and thus having guitars out there in poor but undiagnosed condition.'


Me too, the way it was originally described by Mayes and Wells they all seem to settle in some in the first 6-12 months frequently requiring a tweak. Often the owner does not notice it unless they use the whole neck.

They sure notice the improved playability after you fix it though.

Once they find their sweet spot and you tweak the set they seem stable in my experience. I discussed this with Sylvan who had talked to Dana and have made some mods that seem to be helping a lot.
A different mortise that leaves more top glued to the head block, doming the upper bout at 60' and some changes on the top brace mortise block junction. I've been doing it a couple of years and the ones I've seen back look good although some have moved slightly. I have not had to reset any so far.

I'd love to see pictures of Chuck 's setup too. I really hate to re-tool to add internal struts and/or go to a fully supported extension but I may wind up there. I love the double tenon concept.

The original question? Yeah I cover them for the original owner.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I don't think anyone (99%) would expect it unless you brought it up.

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Pat

I have been building with the same "glued-in-solid, mortise & tenon" neck joint since my first guitar in 1975.
I tell my customers that I warrant, to the original purchaser "for my working life, for workmanship"
Frankly I would enjoy having my old instruments in the shop for one thing or other, but it hardly ever happens.
I understand the fear of offering a warranty that is too comprehensive, but so far the fear is way worse than the reality.

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

My warranty specifically precludes neck resets as part of the natural long-term changes that take place on acoustic instruments. I also moved away from the idea of lifetime warranty in favour of a three year warranty, which is a more than reasonable period of time for builder-caused issues to become apparent.

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Richard
http://www.guitarmaker.com

Sounds as if many of you guys have given this some thought before and adjusted your warranties to better suit reality - good going!

Interestingly about 10 years ago on the OLF most warranties covered neck resets although some wondered why back then that they should - I was one of them.... Although this thread is by no means a scientific approach to polling Luthiers at present the tone... seems to be all over the map.

Thanks everyone so far and let's hear from others who warranty their instruments and if the warranty includes neck resets.

Ed and Terry,
Here is my double tenon set up. The neck tenon is wedge shaped (dovetail made with a flush barrel bit) in which a clamp is required to put the neck home before bolting. The tenon is an interference fit which can be tested by holding the guitar up without bolting. Also, I use hanger bolts into a cross dowell which, in my non scientific testing, can take much more pressure than the inserts, but optimally proven by Collings. I also use an L shape head block that is fitted to butt and glue to the UTB. The tongue support is 3" wide so as to leave a fair amount of gluing surface to the top after mortised. And I use 1/4 x 5/16 to 3/8 sound hole braces to transfer the pressure to the main X close to where it is pocketed in the linings. The fret board tenon is an applied 3/8 baltic birch ply with tee nuts. Here are a few pics.

Chuck

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Thanks Chuck! Beautiful workmanship, I can see why they are stable.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

My guitars have a double bolt tenon and a glued-on tongue. My written warranty covers the standard defects in materials and workmanship for the original owner "for as long as I am actively building" and is only transferable to another person at my discretion. I might transfer in the case of a father giving the guitar to his son or daughter, etc. I do not cover anything related to normal wear such as fret work or neck resets. I usually do setups at no cost and restrings for just the cost of the strings.

One important note is that in my case, there can be a difference between what is written and what I may choose to do on a case-by-case basis. Something in writing means that I have obligated myself to do it for everyone, all the time. I won't paint myself into a corner and make promises that I shouldn't have to keep. We've all seen 50 year old guitars that look great and 5 year old guitars that look like world war survivors. I will often extend extra service to those who I feel have taken good care of the instrument, even of such service is not included in my written warranty.

So to sum up, conservative written warranty, more liberal application in certain instances. Neck resets? Not in writing! I did actually do one at no cost for one of my first customers because I felt that the neck was a bit under-set at the beginning. After a year of breaking in, it needed reset. (BTW, this was a guitar I made in school and my instructor set the neck!) I do want to say in closing that I give exceptional customer service and will always take care of good customers.

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It will probably be alright.

Excellent post Greg and this is exactly where I want to be in terms of warranties, resets, and of course that all important customer service too.

In my case I have covered normal wear and tear stuff on a case by case basis simply because I like my clients and some of them are pretty good friends these days. So when someone wore out their bone nut I made them a new one mostly because I can and this is how I would want to be treated too. My warranty does not say anything about nuts and never will either but what I got from Greg's post was the "spirit" of how he wants to do business, value his clients, and stand behind his work - all great things!

of course you have to warrantee a faulty neck set. But improper storage and humidity does void the warrantee......