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I really like their stuff. I was wondering if it made sense to attach this device to a
Williams binding jig :

http://www.luthiertool.com/binding%20cutter.html

I've seen (but cannot find) pictures of Williams jigs outfitted to use spiral downcut bits. I'm interested in doing this.

Thanks

Mike

I don't see why. Your sides would have to be amazingly square to cut consistent depth.

Do a search for Dave White and binding cutter. He Made a second lazy Susan attachment for his Williams style binding jig so he could use a down cut bit instead of the usual luthier supply house rabbit bit sets.


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Here you go

http://www.defaoiteguitars.com/page33.htm


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Thanks Rod... thats it.

"I don't see why. Your sides would have to be amazingly square to cut consistent depth."

My main reason is to not have to use bearings and rabbit cutters. They are "violent". If I for a moment forget the correct path direction (its happened), well, you know what can happen. I like the binding jig design above. But I don't care for the freehand part of it. Fixing it to the Williams jig may screw up the concept.

Of course my sides are amazingly square!

A bit simpler.
Tom

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Only one device needs to be used to keep the jig square to the sides. Either the Williams jig or the Cool Tool. Using both together would not gain you anything.

^
That's what I meant to say...

Right. I agree. I want a an out of the box ready solution to convert my williams jig to down cut bits. Right now, and for some time now, my mood towards self built jigs etc has waned.

I far prefer a rabbit cutter with concentric bearings because the side-to-side depth of cut stays consistent. When I used to try to use spiral down cut bits, I would have to rely on a finger guide to register against the side for side-to-side depth of cut. Such a guide doesn't cut full depth unless it is perfectly perpendicular to the side. When registering off curved sides, that perpendicularity is not easy to maintain. Just my preference.

See my post in the fixture area. It uses a down cut spiral bit and is bearing guided.
Works near flawless.
I use it in conjunction with the guitar on a turntable/lazy susan.

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Ok, so what some of u are saying is that the edge on the side can end up with inconsistent depth. I think I can see the issue. A large rabbit bit will tend to average out fluctuations. I had not considered that. But it is the basis of a couple of good cutters, no?

I think you need to consider the path which the bearing will follow, and the size of the bearing. If the path is smooth and fair, then the channel should be an exact copy of the path. A smaller bearing will be more sensitive to inconsistencies on the path. Think tire sizes, the larger diameter tires tend smooth the ride.
I use a 1/4" spiral cutter and get excellent results, but the bearing OD is likely around 1".
Also I think that the closer I run the bearing to the channel the less error I get.

B

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I have a Luthier Tool binding cutter. It can be adapted to nearly any router and jig set up as it mounts in the routers guide bushing hole. I adapted my Fleishman binding machine. Should be the same with a Williams.
I have used it on three instruments and have been very happy with it. I have had even channels cut with is. The Fleishman jig holds the router square. The index wheel on the cutter works really well.

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I've no doubt that it works great. From the pictures, though, I can tell that the bearing is larger than the bit. You have to keep the body perpendicular to the finger holding the bearing in order to get a full side-to-side depth of cut. If you were to skew the body by 10 degrees to the left or right, for instance, your side-to-side depth of cut would go shallow. That doesn't happen with a concentric bearing on a rabbiting bit. My preference is more about my lack of skill at maintaining that perpendicularity. I'm not good at it, so I prefer rabbiting bits and concentric bearings.

True, this is why I use the turntable under the guitar. A few degrees out of perpendicular is unmeasurable. Also I tend to make multiple passes to account for any error.
The width of the purfling is also a concern as the wider it gets the further from the pivot point and the error becomes greater, so the perpendicular becomes more critical.
B

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NICE!

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

While it is true that the rabbit bit and bearings produces a perfect depth of cut every time, this doesn't mean that there aren't other options that also work equally as well.

Both Larrivee and Taylor both use a fixed "bearing" surface with a cutter and move the guitar body instead of the cutter. The binding jig that Josh House at Canadian Luthier Suppliers is the same style and system as the Taylor and Larrivee system.

Mike, I'm sure you can set up the system you want. The important thing is to remember that with the down cut bit, and independent bearing system you have to keep the guitar edge perpendicular to the cutter. This takes some getting use to and honestly you'll have to check the channel a few times and go over the channel a few times also to get it right. But once you've gotten the hang of it, it won't seem that much different that the rabbit bit set up.

An important factor with the down cut bit and independent bearing is to ensure the bearing diameter is larger than the cutter by a good margin (1/4" bit with a 3/4"-1" bearing would be ideal), this way when running the router around the body the cutter will never fall deeper into the body (channel depth) than it would with a smaller bearing.

I've done both ways and like everything else with this craft, it takes time to get the hang of the procedure.

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it doesn't matter if you use up or down the key is to use SHARP.

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Its never a bad idea to lightly scribe wood at the top and bottom of the cut, especially where the cutter crosses end grain. On long grain, scribing a little deeper can help minimize blowing out wood while climbing into end grain as from waist to upper bout/lower bout.

Alex

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I have one of the LT binding cutter and it is an amazing piece of equipment. You get what you pay for.

R

Richard,
Which model do you use? I have been checking out the one Mike originally posted in this thread. Is that the one?

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

I purchased the Luthier tool jig years ago and agree that it's VERY well made and works great. I'll add that it's a real work of art with the machining, etc.

I did give mine away however favoring the William's jig and here's why. With this style of binding jig it's very possible to tip the thing inward and take a divot out of a gutiar top. Of course who would want to do this.... certainly not me. This is why I opped for something a little more bullet proof in avoiding opperator (me....) error.

There are at least a couple of threads in the archives of folks who tipped their jig of this style (there are shop-made ones too) inward and were sadly SOL.

Hesh,
I do know what you mean. I did my first few binding jobs with a dremel and the stewmac attachment. Essentially it was a smaller version of the Luthier tools design. Then I switched to the router bit and bearing routine, Still hand held. It worked fairly well but when my purfling/binding scheme became more elaborate I never seemed to have the right bearings. I don't have room for a rotating table/articulated arm set up so I'm thinking this might work for me.

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Joe Beaver
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Hi Joe, I have the original one, I guess it is the standard and yes thats the one on Mike's post. I did not know he had the others. I have had the StewMac BC but I think this one is just as easy and A LOT less set up time. Plus you don't have to deal with changing out the bearings. There is a little learning curve, but it is easy to get scrap lumber and practice your technique. I think he dropped the price of the standard. I think $205 is a deal.

R