Official Luthiers Forum!

So, heres how this building thing started for me.
I've always wanted to learn to the guitar, so one day, fiveish years ago, I think to myself, hey,if you build yourself one maybe you will stick with it and learn to play. How hard can it be? Well it turns out that I have no musical ability, no rythym and I don't like to practice.
But, the building aspect was a lot of fun. Working now on #7 and each one gets a little better.
I just give them away to friends who play and they seem to think that they are good. Course they could just be being polite.
The problem I find is that I am not always sure what makes a good playable instrument.
Anyone else not play? Or am I just odd?

B

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

Bill Collings says that he isn't much of a player, so I wouldn't say it's a requirement to build high quality instruments.

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Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

I don't know about this bunch, but Leo Fender couldn't even hold a pick right.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Brian, my story is almost identical to yours. I still have hopes of learning to play, but right now would rather build than practice.

I don't play anymore. I have a bad shoulder that causes great pain after just a few minuets playing. But it is no loss to the world at large. Like Collings, I discovered long ago that my talent is for building, not for playing. I do miss it a lot though.

Cecil

I am a player/builder. I think your final set-up work will tell whether you are a builder or a player/builder.
Michael

I think it would be a huge disadvantage as a builder to not play. There are so many subtleties as to what makes a guitar highly "playable," which is at least as important as the build quality from an aesthetic standpoint. Not only do I need to be able to strum a few chords, I need to put the guitar through its paces, from chordal arrangements to single-line flatpicking to DADGAD arrangements, etc. I need to understand how the instrument responds under my hands, how the neck shape affects hand fatigue after playing an hour, how articulate individual notes of a chord are, if and where wolf tones might be present up and down the neck, and so on. If I took the time I'm sure I could think of several more things I'm looking for as I play a guitar. Not to mention just being able to discuss all those factors with customers in the planning stages of a build. That said, when all is said and done, I always try to get my instruments into the hands of better players than me before they go to their rightful owners. Their feedback is always enlightening, but ultimately, I'm my own harshest critic.


Ken Jones
Mountain Song Guitars

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

I'm not much of a player but I think being able to strum a few chords, do a little flat picking and some finger style helps. I'm not saying you have to play in order to build a great guitar. In my case the more I play the easier it is to understand what a good guitar is.

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

I'm not as good a player as I'd like to be, but I expect every player out here would say that. I do love the process of designing and building and I think my playing ability gives me a better sense of what I want to achieve in an instrument building project. I read years ago that most of the best old time luthiers were not particularly good players. Of course, I don't know whether that's true, but it's an interesting assertion.

I know half dozen chords at best and probably couldn't play rhythm to Mary had a little lamb , well maybe not that bad . Anyway I believe knowing basics is important and having a fair understanding of music is . However being a Talented Player is NOT a criteria to being a good builder . As far as set up is concerned , Yes being a player would make it faster and maybe there are subtitle differences a quality Player could detect that the average player would never pick up on.

I have 2 extremely talented Guitarist who I have put my builds/ repairs through their paces , and thus far I have had very minor things to address . Mostly its been minor fret work. A fret buzz up in the area that I never play in ! ..

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Do you need to be a great driver to help build a car? Do you need to be a sailor to build a boat? Do you have to be a great football /hockey/basebal player to broadcast the games?
Being a player helps, but is not essential. Having good ears is essential.

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Under Compensated Nut!

I've played guitar since I was 12 years old (that makes 40 years now) and have loved the instrument the entire time. I've built 21 over the past 14 years (yea, I'm slow). I am not musically inclined at all. I'm entirely left brained (degree in Chemistry and work in IT). Music theory is just not understandable to me. I have no timing, very little pitch detection (I can tell when it is out of tune, but find it difficult to 'play by ear'), and just can't seem to force myself to improve. I like to play ALONE, which my family appreciates.
I believe my guitars have become excellent based on my own observations and feedback from honest "pros" that I rely on. Would they be better if I had the talent, ear and musical ability - I would have to imagine they would be. Every little bit helps in this craft. Not a road block, I can assure you, but a disadvantage to lacking playing talent?- yes.

Me too although I can still play, a little. I have a strong and very persistant muscle knot, kind of Rhomboid area, that leads to weakness in the left hand. Occasionally it impinges on a nerve and gives me a lovely pleasant electric shock!

There are a number of very good makers who can't play or at least can't play very much. Some of worlds top violin makers can barely draw a note, so it's obviously possible to be extremely good at one but poor or non existant at the other.

I played for 20 years before I started building. I was what one might call "semi-professional" working in bands, one man lounge gigs, as a sideman in a recording studio and a few television spots. As I gradually moved away from steel string acoustic & electric and into classical I only started building as a way of trying to get better instruments for myself. I built about 40 classical guitars over the next 20 years and then I retired from my "real" job as a banker. I was then able to take my building more seriously and as part of that I took a masterclass with Greg Byers. This was about 12 years ago. About six years ago I developed osteoarthritis in my fingers and gradually had to stop playing.

There's no doubt in my mind that being able to play is helpful, especially in terms of establishing a clear mental image of what you want from your guitars sound wise. Apart from that I think I've done some of my best work since I had to stop playing. Many of my clients are far more accomplished players that I ever was and working with them has probably been more helpful than anything else.

Here's how important being able to play is. I have built over 250 mandolins in my lifetime, and can't flatpick to save my soul. I can play well enough to know that the instrument plays well. But to say I was a mandolin player is ludicrous.
As far as being a guitar player, my arthritis stops me from calling myself a guitar player. I know a few tunes, some well, but folks that play my instruments both mandolin and guitar say they play very easily.
Those that use their ability to play the instrument to say that they know how to build it from playing experience are not talking about instruments for other players, rather they are talking about instruments set up as they like to play them.
An example: I am setting up the action today for a VG player on an instrument I just finished for him. To me, the neck is a club and action way too high (it's roughed in). But that is the way HE plays.
All the playing experience in the world won't help set that instrument up.

I would think for one off builders it would help for the final set up also. I think I've done about 30 set ups and I'm finally startingto get it. Always a fairly thorough playing through to see how i've done or where it could improve. I'm sure it can be done by #'s. That's really what a lot of it comes down to. Accept the nut. For me it's mostly eyeball and my close up glasses.

Got good friends living just up the hill from you Bri. I use to live in Kelowna.

Cheers,
Danny

Good point Haans. It does come down to the numbers and the player.

I can't speak to building since I recently just finished my #1 guitar but I have been repairing guitars since I was 8 or 9 years old. My family didn't have much money at the time (back in the early 60's) and I wanted to learn to play in the worst way. I found my first guitar in the trash, broken, beat up and no strings... I fixed it up and learned to play and have been fixing them pretty much ever since.

I have played in a number of bands and for the most part of my life I have played at least an hour a day. So I am on the side of the argument that you should be able to play well enough to know a good playing guitar from a bad.

In repair it is pretty much essential that you know how to play since a lot of times I am repairing guitars for professional players that know exactly what they want in a setup and I have to be able to distinguish those subtle differences that make a good playing guitar from an excellent playing guitar. My views on building are no different since a perfectly built guitar can be a piece of crap with a poor setup and being able to play is essential (to me) in doing a great setup.

I know lots of you will disagree but that is my take and I don't see how anyone can not know how to play and build a great guitar unless you have someone you can rely on to tell you what you are doing.

I think it is a bit like being a blind painter... You do find that one in a million but they are far a few between.

Bob

You are partially correct but it does help a lot when a client brings his/her guitar in to me and they tell me what and how they play and then I actually play their instrument to understand what they want out of it. I personally play very lightly and like very low action on my acoustics mainly because I played electrics most of my life so when some one brings in an instrument that has high action and has the finish all scrubbed off from playing so hard I can tell they would hate my personal guitars but I also know that I can set it up exactly as they want.

So playing experience is very helpful in knowing what a client wants. Personal preferences have no part in setting up and instrument for someone else.

Bob

This is a really interesting thread!

I've been playing since age 6, and started building about 4 years ago. I have completed 16 guitars so far.

I personally can't imagine trying to build without a players knowledge. My hat's off to those that do!

i play and build, but i think i'm in trouble if i ever have to build a lefty.

Well put!
The ability to set up an instrument comes from experience, not playing expertise. Building it comes from experience, not playing expertise...
I guess someone should define being a "player". Does being and expert help? Not in my book. Can you build a guitar not knowing how to play at all? Doubtful that it would turn out good enough for an expert, but would it suffice a beginner? Probably...

Well, I dont feel so unusual now. I can strum 8 or 10 chords but as to actually stringing them together to make anything akin to music........ Well hmmm
I do know when the guitar is out of tune or when a chord sounds sour, but I dont know why. I feel jealous of the guys who just pick it up, strum it and automatically tune the one string out of pitch.
I do feel a disadvantage regarding the tone and playability but I suppose that all comes with experience.
Thanks for all the great replies.

B

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

Being able to play well enough to know whether you have or not achieved what you were going for...is essential. How else would you be able to adjust to improve toward your vision. Otherwise your relying on others to tell you if you got it right. Their vision / ear / expectations. And, seriously...you can't rely on that.

I seem to do one more than the other these days. But I sure miss being in a band.