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Does anyone know where I can find files that are flat? I'm pretty sure that I've never actually found one. Granted, I've only ever bought them from the local hardware stores. Would the files I buy from McMaster Car or MSC be flatter? Would a jeweler's supplier have them? Just trying to think which industry requires a tighter tolerance for their tools.

Thanks,
-Aaron


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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

I haven't bought one of these, but flatness is one of the selling points http://www.ebay.com/itm/Guitar-Fret-Leveling-File-2-sided-/110829267161?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item19cdf068d9

Aaron we greatly prefer leveling beams over files. We may use files for special circumstances such as the guy who has a new Les Paul and is my age... and not accustomed to .060" high frets. He hated the high frets and could not play the guitar because of them. I proposed to take them down to around .035" and then level, recrown, and polish and he went for it. Man was he a happy client. In that case we used files to hog off most of the material and then went to beams for the precision that they offer and the flexibility that various sizes of beams offer.

For high precision though leveling beams with 80, 120, and 220 grit are the best way that we have found to level the frets and board. Stew-Mac sells beams and so to does OLFer Murray and you can find Murray's stuff on ebay by searching "Technofret."

Hope this helps!

I use files to level worn frets or knock the tops off quickly, then finish with a sanding block just prior to crowning and polishing. Quick, easy, and if done right knocks down a .047 fret to .045, a couple hundredths.

The way I picked my file was to take a straightedge down to a tool shop that had a large selection and went through them all until I found a perfectly flat one on both sides.

I've purchased supposedly "flat" files for fret levelling off Ebay several times and had to return them all.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I have been checking files for flatness on surface plates since the late 70's.
The heat treating process does not guarantee flatness.

And, Hesh - I would refrain from using WE in this forum.
You don't speak for everyone, and I am darn sure to have found little agreement on this forum.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I'm pretty sure Hesh's "we" refers to his shop, rather than this forum. Apparently they're a more agreeable bunch

And for fret leveling, DMT dia-sharp stones are another good option.

Thanks Dennis - right you are!

@Pile: Yes "we" refers to our three Luthier shop where we all use the very same methods which in this case is the leveling beams.

I would never attempt to speak for anyone else and that seems like a no-brainer to me.... So if you don't like me using the word "we" perhaps don't read my stuff because I am sure to do it again, over and over...

Another problem with files, actually two issues in "our view...." is one of the reasons why "we" will never "spot-level" is that "we" believe in treating the entire fret plane as a whole and not certain regions in isolation.

Why? Because "we" attempt to view the fret plane as the strings see it and after all the strings under tension are natural straight edges are they not - that was a rhetorical question.

Files are too short to span the first through the 12th, a minimum length for us when leveling either the board or the frets. After the 12th "we" induce fall-away so that's where the shorter beams come in for us meaning, you guessed it, "we."

Second since this forum, the OLF, is not known to be predominately a repair forum and is instead likely.... a builder's forum my guess was and is that the OP's question was asked in the context of fret work for a new instrument recently completed or in the process thereof. As such something as aggressive as a file for a new instrument clearly indicates that something is not right if the builder has to hog off copious amounts of fret material which, of course, files are better at than sand paper. So I answered the question in the context that this is a new instrument and not a 1947 O sized Martin with a kinked fret board requiring aggressive board leveling or fret leveling.

So that's why I contributed what "we" use and do with the hope that others, not meaning "we" but others will benefit, even you Chris! Please note smiley face it was NOT put there by "we" but by "me" and only me.

Also.....(and I can go on for days about this subject...) another problem with files is exactly the nature of this thread. They are not known for being flat regardless of what some may believe flat to be. When "we" have a famous, pro client who appreciates action of 2 and 3 respectively (meaning the high e is 2/64th" at the 12th and the low e is 3/64th" at the 12 and he uses 9's) on his Les Paul and other shops did not make him happy the flatness of the leveling tool has to be pretty precise. Our leveling beams are flattened periodically on a calibrated surface plate to achieve this and they seem to stay pretty flat over time too. We checked several of them that had not been checked in 3 - 4 years last month and found them to be flat to .00025" along the entire span. Not bad and exactly why "we" like them over files for the precision part of fret leveling.

Files still get used in our shop by....................us................ because they are still great for hogging off lots of material quickly.

And Chris, since you seem to think that little agreement seems to exist on this forum please don't speak for me either. I find lots of agreement here, lots of great folks, and a fairly rich level of contact off the forum as well from this group. Perhaps in order to find more agreement one must also be an agreeable sort? Just a thought my friend.

What do you use for a complex shaped fingerboard, such as the older Ramirez or any number of classical luthiers? For these, you need to have the board shaped the way you want it, and "level" the frets to follow the shape of the board. I use a flexible piece of wood with a fairly coarse wet/dry paper glued to it.

We... still use our leveling beams, the strings are still natural straight edges and always benefit from the ability to get things straight and flat.

But wait there's more.... When you get good with the beams you can also correct all manner of issues with certain instruments as well.

For example let's face it it's a toss-up with new instruments (older ones too) if they will have more relief on the treble side or the bass side. Likely 50% or so are not what we... want to see in that they may have more relief on the treble side. With the beams and the ability to get things perfectly flat initially and a bit of creative hand pressure and neck support location you can remove relief where a rubber neck may wish to have relief and add relief where a rubber neck may not be cooperative.

Also if you use the beams tracing the string paths and are not working on an instrument with a flat board intentionally put there you can easily create a compound radius fret plane or board in the leveling process. I won't get into the benefits of a compound radius board here trying to stay on topic believe it or not...

My favorite though is this: Client instrument is marginal for a neck reset. Client lacks the coin for the reset at this time but would like to stop struggling as much as they do when playing Purple Haze with high action toward the body. When leveling these frets concentrating on the the first several frets with more pressure can increase neck angle a bit in terms of the fret heights and make that hard to play instrument again playable without, for now... the added cost and delays of a neck reset. We've done this one many, many times for lots of grateful folks!

We've built an entire system around using leveling beams and can do a lot of pretty cool stuff with them as well. They are also great portable mini-surface plates for close tolerance nut and saddle work too in that they are very flat. I'm sure we are just scratching the surface with our beams and their uses though.

I prefer to use a file myself. Like guitarwhisperer, I used a straightedge to find a flat one.

I stareted out using a stone to level frets, and wore out a fret rounding file in a couple of years. Then I realized that the grit from the abrasive was getting embedded in the frets, and that was what was eating up the file. After that I switched to filing them level, and my rounding file has lasted for over thirty years.

Files have to be fully hard in order to be able to cut any other material. This means that can't be tempered after quenching, and it's tempering that removes the internal stress that causes them to warp. Hence, most files are more or less warped, and there really is not much that can be done about it. When you find a flat one, reserve it for leveling frets and it should last a long time.

I had a LP fretless wonder. The frets were flattened nibs. I loved it and still miss it. The action was incredible.
.035-" sounds pretty dang low. I used super light strings and played with a soft touch.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Hesh and crew.... I sincerely apologize!
That's the problem about being specific and being general.... you get misunderstandings.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

You live in Atlanta which is a large city. There should be some tool supply places (not the box stores) that will have boxes of loose files as opposed to individually packed files for retail sale.

Find one of these supply places & take a straight edge with you. That's how I found a reasonably flat one here in Columbus OH - a lot smaller than Atlanta

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

I use to use a couple of files that I have both which were pretty straight but I switched to using a beam "of sorts" and found them to be much better than hogging off a bunch of metal with a file. My main reason for switching is a file is so aggressive and leaves pretty deep scratches which needs to be sanded out.

I now use and old aluminum carpenters level that I cut into 2 pieces, an 18" piece and a 6" piece. I then lapped them on a piece of 1/4" plate glass just like I would a plane. I lapped one face and both sides so I have a perfectly flat surface and edge. I use the level held at a 45% angle as a straight edge to site down frets or fretboards and the face with stick-it sandpaper to level frets. If I need to take a lot off I stick 80 grit to it and varying finer grits for taking less material off. I like it because it is only about 1" wide so I can follow the string path pretty easily and not worry too much about flattening out a radius on an existing fretboard.

I still have a short piece of a file that I use to spot level things which I have made all edges "safe" by grinding off all the rough edges. I also lapped the sides and use it as a rocker to check frets but other than that the only files I use anymore are small fine files for crowing and dressing fret ends.

I am sure using a store bought steel beam is probably the best idea if you are running a production repair shop but I find my aluminum make-shift level/beam seems to do the trick pretty well for me. And it didn't cost me much since I used an old level that had a couple of the bulbs dried out and would have been thrown out. I have been using it for about 5 years now and in that time I did re-lap it but it didn't really seem to need it.

Call me cheap but I hate spending a lot of money for tools I can make myself. I am Scottish so maybe that's my problem...

Cheers,
Bob

My files are so old and dull that they don't hog off much material, and they cover more than half the length of the fretboard and so I find them plenty sufficient. They're still flat though.

Even when they were new I didn't hog off a ton of material, new fretboards just require a few swipes and then the sanding block, 2 hundredths of an inch max, which is more than reasonable.

I can set up guitars for the most demanding of players, too.

Nothing against sanding beams, different (file or beam) strokes for different folks!

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I also use a very long file. I don't really hog down on it when leveling frets. I do go back with fret crowning file and use the Stewmac fret dressing erasers. They work great. The Polish to a very high gloss.
Granted I would use the beams if they didn't cost so much. I really don't do that many fret jobs.


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I don't understand "hogging off" a lot of the fret. Why put in tall frets if you are going to "hog off" a bunch?
I use beams and start at 320 or 400. A few swipes and I can take off quite a bit. I always try to take off the least possible to get it straight. Don't care to re-crown 20 frets...

@ Chris - apology accepted and one is sincerely offered to you as well. It's also great to see stuff getting worked out which is a very positive change IMHO.

@Lonnie - our shop made our own leveling beams and they are super inexpensive to make too. It's 1 X 2 aluminum stock (we buy "drops" making them even less expensive). They are cut to length, the ends and side angles are "safed" and then they are leveled (both sides) on a calibrated surface plate. My first batch took me about a day to make to get everything uber flat but they are very worth it. I would estimate that one could make a set of these consisting of a 6", 8", 15", 18" and 24" beam for less than $20. And as mentioned they seem to stay very flat too over time and countless jobs as well.

I'm planning on throwing up a toot on fret dressing using leveling beams later this summer when I get the right mule in and feel up to as well.

The vast majority of our tools we make for ourselves. In fact as of the last month or so we now have a machinist on retainer who does what ever we need in a few days tops. We also have a mill but it's an old and tired one so we only use it to make the prototype parts for our own use. Some of the things that we also do with our mill is route out cavities for those "drop-in replacement pups" which, by the way, never seem to just drop in as the box says.... . Last week we made a locking handle for a rare Japanese Strat that has a locking nut set-up where the handle broke and replacement parts are not available.

Come to think of it most of the tools that we purchase such as Stew-Mac diamond crowning files we extensively modify right out of the box. With the crowning files the depth of the concave business side is too great and will mar the board when dealing with frets of .015" or less so we grind off some of this depth and the boards are better for it.

By the way we do use files too when we an find flat ones.... and our's are often bonded to a nice wooden handle after being cut to length and having the end and edges "safed" as well. I love how a sharp file will leave very little if any scratches.

Lots of ways to do this stuff and my hope in describing what our busy shop does is that folks can get a view of methods that work very well every single day and also have been developed to get the work done efficiently so that we can move on to the next job.

In our distribution of work in our three Luthier shop I'm the guy who handles the in and out in one day stuff as well as the fret work. So I do a LOT of fret work and really enjoy it too. It's one of those things that a client can appreciate right away. I also love the idea of folks throwing all manner of stuff at me and my task is to diagnose it correctly, develop a plan, get to it, and deliver the beast back to Mr. or Mrs. customer most of the time that very same day. In a way it's not unlike fielding questions on a forum, something that I also have always enjoyed.

Anyway I am now digressing so sorry about that too. Again though my hope is that when hobby builders have a view of commercial methods, tools, successes, failures, etc. that everyone here will perhaps have some choices that they did not know about prior.

I'll never have a problem with folks having different methods provided that it really works for them and also provided that the definition of success for an outcome, the level of accuracy, benefit to the client, etc. can be harmonized as well.

Lastly, about four years ago we challenged a PLEK machine evangelist to a dual - two of our best fret dresses against two of the PLEK's best dresses (likely sack dresses with attribution to Hans... ). We were told that the outcome could not be published because if we won it might dispel some of the myths as to what exactly a PLEK can do for us. So no dual yet but we keep asking and certainly don't want to have to purchase or lease a PLEK just to once again reaffirm that any human can get results as good or superior too a PLEK with the right method and a highly developed understanding of the process. Maybe someday.

And if you are getting the feeling that this is not at all "work" for my crew you nailed it. We love this stuff, live it, breath it, think about it nearly every waking moment. Just what I wanted too! Sorry for being long winded as well...

Yeah that one threw me too. If it's a new build and if one has a decent method for fretting only the very least about of material, kissing the fret crowns with perhaps 220 grit is all a new build should very need. If anyone finds that they have to grind away at some frets on a new build you should examine your fretting method because this should not be.

Guys,
If you are referring me saying "hogging off" with a file... You know exactly what I meant. Compared to sandpaper, a file can cut much deeper and faster so my term was to illustrate the difference.

I am sure If I dissected every phrase you guys used I could probably find some way to take offense as well.... Lighten up a little That is just how arguments get started...

It is a good thing I am a well natured guy...

Hey Hesh, I own one of those Stratocasters, an all black one in mint condition and not a scratch on it.

Bob

I have a piece of aluminum bar 26" long that I had surface ground at a machine shop for $10. I use it to level the fretboard and the tops of the frets. I hammer in my frets the old fashioned way but check each as I go with a magnifier and one of those Stewmac rockers. Finding any little high spots as I go has really speeded up the process, it goes with saying but I'll say it anyway, the less you're taking off the top of the frets the quicker the crowning and subsequent polishing. I did this one last Saturday, 4 hours with a sandwich and a beer from fretboard level to full polish.

Tim

P.S. While we're criticizing vocabulary. Hesh, I believe you had a "duel".

Hey Tim but you said beer so now I'll say drool.....

Right you are too - if one has a decent method for fretting one will spend far less time leveling and have more time for beer!

Bob buddy does your Japanese Strat also have the black painted head stock? I love those and at the risk of getting flamed (not that I care... ) some of those Japanese Strats were better built than any of the other Strats ever with the one exception perhaps being the pre-Walter Cronkite ones.

Very cool! If your locking nut handle ever breaks you now know who can make you a new one too!

Nope, not referring to you Bob, didn't even know who said "hogging off". Just offered my opinion, and the lack of understanding about using files.
Every one of us has our own way of doing things and if files work for you, that's great. I just prefer to cover the whole fretboard from 1-16 or so at the same time, and I don't need to cut fast or deep. I'm retired...
It's a good thing you are a well natured guy!

One day my son told me, "It is ALWAYS wrong to generalize."

@Haans,
I did say "Hogging off" when I referred to files. That term actually comes from when I worked in body shops. A body file is actually one of the most aggressive files I have used and they do "Hog Off" a lot of material pretty fast. So that is where my terminology came from. And if someone that isn't aware how fast a file can remove material compared to sandpaper I think "Hogging Off" is an appropriate term. For the same reason you explained about covering the whole fretboard is the reason I switched from files to using my home made beam.


@Hesh,
Yea it is all black except the gold pin striping I added around the pick guard right after I bought it.

Here it is, I cropped it from a group shot of my guitars that was taken some time ago. I have since added and subtracted a few but I will probably never sell my Strat or my Tele. My strat is one of the smoothest playing guitars I have ever played and is of course set up with extremely low action. A friend of my who keeps bugging me to sell it to him says it almost plays itself, all you have to do is hover your fingers over the frets. He has an Ibenez that I set up with about the same action but he keeps asking about my Strat...

Sorry for the off topic content but I like to show off my Strat, I am a Fender guy through and through when it comes to electrics

Cheers,
Bob