Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello OLF,

Tonight while reading another thread it came to my attention that it frankly gets old time after time reading and commenting about subjects that have been discussed to no end for the older (not age related) members of OLF. Now the other side of the table is the fact that newer members and beginners had trouble getting good results using the search engine. Therefore resulting in these repeated threads. While I enjoy reading the long threads on material I have never seen, I do understand it could get a bit boring for some of the other folks.

I wondered for while what might be the answer. It was in my mind to make a so called personal book or index on my PC for certain things from the information I found here. The reason I have been saving texts is the mere fact that I can not get the results I need on certain subjects. I believe there is a solution to this and it has to come from everyone to come to some sort of agreement. I am creating this thread in hopes to brain storm something and propose it to either Lance is he is needed or just to create some type of system we can all adhere to.

The idea that I can come up with off the bat. Which I know Is not perfect in the least but in hopes of getting the conversation started. Is that we could create sub forums (which I know is unpopular) that are organized like an index. Ken had pointed to another forum in where it was very similar to what i have in my head. We could proactively create threads intentionally and fill them with content that the older guys can go and give their 2 cents and not have to be bothered with it again. This is work and there is no sugar coating it, but it is an idea. There is also the lazier approach of moving a thread that comes up into the subforum, the problem there is that there will be chatter and banter in the thread maybe not related to the original topic. Whatever the case I hope we can get some ideas flowing and resolve it, for again while it may not bother me since I am a new guy, it may to the others.

Thanks for reading, and I hope no one takes offense to anything I wrote.

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This is a great idea! I will do what ever I can if we can come up with a workable solution.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Michiyuki my friend thanks for posting this!

Sure the search engine could be better and effort is required to sort through the 44 pages of hits that I just received by simply entering "pore filler" into the search engine but the information is there.... it just requires some effort. No one ever said that Lutherie was easy....

Back when I was in college I took a class called IMS that used a theoretical text produced by IBM also called "IMS" or "Information Management Systems." The book was about the idea that someday someone would invent something that might be called a "relational database...." A few years later I met the man who along with 5 students in a garage in Ann Arbor, Michigan invented the world's first true relational database. Prior to this everything was a flat file, sequentially indexed with no opportunity for primary search "keys", secondary search "keys" and so on and so forth.

The fellow, Prof. Malcolm Cohen and his grad students had written what became Condor Computer the world's first software company to create a working relational database. Condor grew to $50+M in only several years and then you guessed it - died on the vine... But before they did they had most of the US government, military, and a host of Fortune 50 clients using this product.

I consulted with Condor and recall the very first thing that I ever said to the founder which was "why in the hell did you name the company after an extinct bird?" So as you can see I have a history of irritable bowel syndrome....

Anyway.... back then people loved Condor and marveled that in only a few minutes with less than perhaps 100 key strokes one could find anything and everything that they wanted to see in the data base....

Do you think that our current search engine is far superior..... because it clearly is....

So before we go redesigning the house why not simply renew the long standing request for folks, especially folks who know better and have been here for a long time... to please attempt a search prior to peeing once again in the collective canteen?

If folks and Lance want to organize information differently I've always liked the idea of a "Best Of The OLF" section that would contain threads deemed by the membership to be some of our best work. It also would take very little effort when things change to link the current "BOTO" thread to past BOTO threads so that eventually all pertinent, on-topic information in dedicated threads would be linked.

It's likely that one would get push back from creating additional forums. IMHO the OLF is too diluted currently with some forums being wastelands with little if any activity. Too many current sub forums is also a complaint that I hear often and not only about the OLF either. This tendency to get larger and larger seems to be what happens to forums and match dot com dates naturally over time….

Not to be critical of our friend Ken who posted a link to his forum that has 30 sub-forums. Again no offense intended but that’s just way too much for someone with the premium on time that I have to deal with and to attempt to navigate.

If sub-forums have little participation there are too many sub-forums in my view.

Personally, being the long-winded sort that I am.... I would love to have the ability to post a link to a post that I made prior or someone else made prior so the redundant stuff could be quickly addressed without writing War and Peace once again... OTOH I also enjoy joking around with you guys a great deal too and perhaps a "canned" cut and pasted reply is just a bit too impersonal for me personally.

Also I'm not willing to be critical of the OLF's search engine until, of course.... someone actually endeavors to use it first and then when it does not work for them perhaps it's time to address that function.

Lastly for now.... a very common complaint among the pro Luthiers who may not participate here is that folks keep asking the very same questions without doing searches. Because of this and other issues many of these folks won't post anymore which is a loss for us all. I call it breathing one's own air when new voices are not encouraged to speak up and participate. How do I know this? I asked, I surveyed over 50 pro Luthiers regarding forum participation and the number one complaint was redundant posts (nothings new....folks not using the search engine) and the number two complaint was that it was difficult to navigate too many sub-forums.

In my own thinking it's poor judgment to permit a flat out refusal to be considerate of others and attempt a search by a very few here to continue to damage the OLF's ability to attract and retain folks who actually walk the walk as well and talk the talk. Not to mention very valued new folks too – everyone has great value to me….

Let's not forget to thank our host Lance too!

My vote is to renew and refresh periodically a forum culture that promotes self-service via the search function and then if that does not provide answers many of us would of course continue to be willing to do what it takes to be of assistance. It's a LOT easier to wish to assist someone who one believes has made an effort to assist themselves first at least with the redundant stuff... A "Best of the OLF" designation would also be a potential solution in my view and those of us interested in helping others could save the links ant whip em out as need be.

Of course this is the forum I pointed to:

http://www.acousticguitarconstructionforum.com/

Its organized pretty much like every "How to Build an Acoustic Guitar" publication that has been written, really nothing to navigate -- what stage of the build do you need help? -- click. Of course that this point after a year and half the membership is not as large as OLF but I have to say there are just about as many truly active members. As administrator it works for me and the bullet point organization is kind of like facilitating a meeting. Just a different approach -- nothing more.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I though the tutorial section pretty much contained most of the "how to" info that one would need. I find that a lot of the very basic stuff that gets repeatedly asked are from people who quite frankly don't want to put the time and effort into learning how to actually build a guitar. Sure they wanna build one but you can't just decide that and do it. Read some books and do some internet searches and most of those questions will be answered. For more complicated issues look in the tutorials. If you can't find it in those places easily then it's probably something worth asking and will lead to a good discussion. As for the people who join up and ask "how thick should my bridge be", "what is a shooting board", etc etc. well those questions you are just gonna have to endure. There will always be those ppl who don't wanna put any effort into learning. They just want to be spoon fed the info. You see one of those threads you can throw em a bone and answer the question or you can just keep on scrolling.

That's my view anyway.

So just a reality check for me personally, is the sentiment here (OLF) that this is a club for the good old boys/girls and if we have to we'll put up with the newbies only if they do the required reading and have some prerequisite training and or knowledge? Which I guess is perfectly OK, but should be stated in the registration form and in the forum rules and guidelines. The OLF mission statement (a term I hate) is to advance what? And for the enjoyment of who? or is it whom?

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Ken a big NO to that. The OLF is and has always been a community first. No level of experience is needed to participate. My understanding of the op was a desire to find a way for better search results.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I don't mind a rehashed topic, I just skip them and look at what does interest me. Sometimes the conversation is more fun than the substance any way!

I know that the sub forum is an unpopular idea based on the fact that it is more time to navigate. The way i was thinking was to create the subforum so one wouldnot have to navigate unless searching for something in particular. Even if it was just one subforum with like you said Best of OLF. So if we wanted to search something we could actually use the search engine and search only in that subforum for something in particular. I think of it as more a catalog sub forum of some sorts rather than a discussions area. It would be redundant for it to be frequently visited and more comments added onto it if nothing has changed. Only if something new has happened to that subject for it to be added on. Otherwise it is more database type stuff.

Now i do agree that we should be more inclined to use the search feature. The search feature is flawed though, and it does take so much time to navigate through. Not saying we shouldnt use it at all, that is not what i am saying. I wish i could use the search feature and only 10 threads come up with exactly the subject i am interested in. Between that and all the chatter to sift through sometimes you get valuable info out of threads and sometimes they drive so far of the road you end up in Egypt (nothing wrong with Egypt).

Maybe i am too optimistic in finding a database type of thing. Somewhere where the older fellas / ladies write what they want down, straight and dry no nonsense, and leave it never to return on giving input unless they want to add something new. It would be great for newcomers for sure, just tell them look in the best of OLF forum for *yada yada*. Or it would also be nice to just link a topic when referencing something in a post.

Hesh, you are great man, but please no whipping stuff out here. family oriented forum here right? j/k

Side note, the search engines of today like google usually use a different type of tagging system so that the content is indexed properly in the server. Meta Tags require the source of the info to tag the website in order for the website to pull it up, the better the tag "keywords" the more chance of it getting picked up faster by a search engine. How it is related here is that the search engine here picks out of text based content rather than a suggested searched meta tag because there is no meta tag given my the author.

The Tutorial section does work and i use it frequently to browse through. It would be interesting for it to not only be tutorial but also info/opinions on certain products. For example, TaiFu had created a thread about pore filler. There was a lot of info there, egg whites epoxy waterbased fillers etc. If you search the tutorial area, there is not much info about all that, one absolutely awesome tutorial by Hesh on Epoxy and another about Varnish Finishing. Maybe another solution would to move the threads there that are worth saving because they repeat so often? Or just create a thread in the Tutorial area called pore fillers, and start from there. Not that pore filling is on my mind it is just an example used here.

I do not know the answer, i just do not think it is reliable as it is.

Pardon any typos

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I've never gotten that impression. Everyone I've seen have always been very welcoming to "noobs". Lol.

And if you got that impression from what I was saying then it was a misinterpretation. I was referring to the people who come with no knowledge and done no research and had no intent to research. They come to be spoon fed info. Those types never contribute anything themselves and usually don't stick around very long before they realize luthiery is a lot of work and not for them.

If that's your impression, Ken, you are sadly mistaken. Fact is that there are not very many "good ole boys (or girls)" participating here anymore anyway.

The OLF has been after the first three years or so pretty much a beginner's forum. There are lots of reasons for this mind you with one simply being that when one hangs out a shingle one has little time for forum participation especially if there is a risk to bear since some of us have skin in the game. I make my living from Lutherie and have far more to lose getting into a pissing contest with anyone especially someone with no skin in the game. This is also one of the most commonly stated reasons for not participating that the pros in my survey expressed. What's in it for us? Seemingly only risk at times....

Without hoping to sound arrogant would you like to know the last time that I learned anything of value to me pertaining to Lutherie on the OLF? I can't even recall but it's been a very long time because most of the topic matter is redundant.

So we come here anyway for what ever reasons we as individuals may have. I've personally always enjoyed the friendship here and will not hesitate to tell folks that participating on the OLF actually changed my life. I learned to build guitars, got told that I don't know crap if I didn't learn repair, met my business partner on the OLF and apprenticed with him for three years and then quit the day job and constant travel and became a Luthier.

I love what I do now and can't wait to get to the shop every day. This is my day off helping a sick family member... so I can't wait to get back to work tomorrow and rest.... But every day for me I have the opportunity to take someone's possibly unplayable "baby" and make it better than ever. They appreciate me, I appreciate them, and a day does not go by that someone does not say the word "awesome" when playing their newly repaired guitar, mando, or b*njo....

It's very likely that had the OLF never existed I personally would have never found the great, personal peace that I now enjoy every single day. If this sounds like a very grateful guy who also may want to give something back - you nailed it!

When you, Ken, post links to your forum in all honestly it does occur to me is Ken attempting to mine the OLF user base in an effort to take members from the OLF to your own forum. Personally I believe this to be bad form even if this is not your intent. You are also the first to be as direct about it as you have been.

So please before attempting to cast stones at a competing forum consider the idea that there just are not all that many good ole boys (and women) left here at present to even make this accusation. You're wrong about this and my hope is that I'm wrong in my own suspicion that you may be mining the OLF user base.

One more thing: Many years ago I was on the other side of this argument on the OLF. I believed that the more experienced folks did not have license to be dicks to the less experienced folks but I also believed that the less experienced folks should at least attempt to understand that if you want to have the benefit of those who know far more than you about Lutherie you also have to have at least a bit of understanding that there is nothing in this for them.

These days even though I just said the other side of the argument I still feel the same way. Everyone needs to respect everyone else no matter what the experience level, we are all mortal, we all love Lutherie, etc.

Again: For all of time on the OLF and other forums as well it has been respectfully requested that ANYONE use the search function prior to starting a new topic. Mistakes happen, new folks may not know, etc. and we can and do deal with this hopefully with respect and class. But... when long term members start new topics that they themselves have participated in countless other discussions on the same topic in the past it gets real old real fast and frankly in my view is selfish and disrespectful to the rest of us.

That's hysterical!!!!

Man that water is cold.....

I don't get it. What is the big deal? If the thread on pore filling bores you, don't open it. If you've put in all you already know about pore-filling, then don't post an answer.
Yea, use the search if you can, and remind people to.
There comes a point in this hobby (at least for me) where you've reached a plateau in your learning curve. I don't necessarily learn a lot of new things about building anymore, but I find the questions interesting anyway.

Hesh actually my question was based on the post made by Zeke regarding how members should read books and use the tutor section before approaching the members using the Guitar builders Forum -- your acquisitions/suspicions are incorrect-- but so be it.

Lance thanks for the quick response -- a community as it should be, I can remember years ago going to Gus Zoppi's in Detroit with my girl friend's dad who was a pro musician, he knew a guitar repairman that was going to be there. It was assumed I would be able to ask him some questions -- net results, total stand off, zero information was shared. To this day I can recall my bewilderment, and make it a point not to do that to anyone if I have something to offer.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Thanks for dispelling the suspicion, Ken. Please accept my sincere apology?

Apology not necessary but certainly accepted -- I can see your point, its just that if I already have pertinent thread information a click away its the best economy of effort (for me) vs composing something new with pic and videos etc.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Welcome to real life, Kubo - where the human race has been discussing the same salient points over and over for thousands of years. You think having a computer would make it easier?

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I know a lot will disagree with me on this but I don't see the point of #itching about a thread that has been discussed before. I mean really what does it hurt if someone wants a quick answer to something? If you think the topic is a "dead horse" then don't click on the thread, it is really pretty simple.

Come on guys, this is a social forum where people can interact about topics relating to guitar stuff. New people will come and ask simple questions. If you don't want to be social and help people out that is just fine. As you have just seen in the A good pore filler? thread there are plenty of people that want to talk about an issue and don't mind that it has been asked before.

I mean you are basically saying that someone has to go into every thread that "they" think is illegal because it has been discussed before and tell the poster to use the search engine? And then delete that thread? Maybe report repeat offenders for banishment?

So how about we do this....

O.L.F. POLICE SIGN-UP SHEET


NAME..............Address..............Phone number
________________________________________
________________________________________
________________________________________
________________________________________
________________________________________
________________________________________

Who's first?


Well?

Couldn't agree more "RusRob". Which is why in my original post I said " You see one of those threads you can throw em a bone and answer the question or you can just keep on scrolling. ".


Most people that are serious about learning will have searched before asking. And I don't mean just searching on the OLF. They will have done some research about guitar building. You can easily tell the difference between those who honestly need a question answered an those who are just wanting the easy answers.

Once again I'll say it "if ya don't like what ya see, keep on scrolling"


If that makes me have a "good ole boys only" view then so be it.

Oh and here are the forms that should be turned in to the OLF police....

Chris, of course no one can disagree with that. We not only have been talking about the same things over and over again, we forget them as well and have to relearn the lessons we lost. This is of course all well documented in History texts, yet no one reads them? It is like we have the tutorials in books for life lessons, yet we as a society meaning nations, do not see the so called light.

Look guys i know it seems like a small thing, but if we get some constructive ideas going maybe we can figure something out that really works for everyone. Like i said before, i enjoy reading those threads that get repeated, simply because i never read them before, or i get a different opinion suggestion about it i have not read before. For instance, for me, i like to go the most non toxic way out of things, that is just me, too much cancer in family and the links to toxicity encourage cell mutations. The thing about egg whites intrigued me, and if i ever needed to pore fill when i didnt have any pumice or silica powder, then i would give it a go. Why not? all natural! centuries of use! cmon!

I do not mean to pick apart the problems, just want to focus on improving the forum community we have here. Not just helping older guys but helping new comers too, which is important to me selfishly All input is greatly appreciated. Every opinion matter, good or bad, positive and negative(without disrespecting others), at least to me. I can not hear emphasis or tone and attitudes when i read the text, so small flairs count to me.

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Guys before this thread gets out of hand let me reiterate. No guitar building question is off limits. No matter how simple or how many times it's been asked. You do not have to "search the archives" before you ask. I have asked silly questions a hundred times looking to get a quick answer. I like that availability to info and friends. It's all about community. The archives are there IF you want to use them. But only if.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

+1 for Lance


It is impossible to stop people from asking questions as well as asking the same questions that have been asked before.

I think it is a noble idea to try to "fix" things but I personally think O.L.F is one of the best forums around and it doesn't need "fixing"

We have a tutorial section that is there for anyone that wants to use it. The search engine on phpbb forums is notoriously bad and difficult to actually find what you are looking for without spending at least 1/2 hour searching through irrelevant posts. It is only natural for some people to ask before searching. That is just how we are made up and no amount of re-structuring a forum is going to change the way people do things.

I ran my own phpbb forum for over 10 years and we had the same issues. I was in the same situation as Lance in that I was the only one managing it and doing all the updates and I didn't have the time nor the desire to police every issue that someone brought up because they were not happy about some aspect of my forum.

I think what is being asked here is for Lance to do all the work to re-structure the forum in a way that some think will solve a problem (that they see as a problem). I know first hand how much work is involved in doing what has been asked and in the end it still will not solve the issue at hand...

That issue is people asking a question that has already been asked and answered. That takes moderators with a heavy hand to step in and tell people they can't ask that specific question because it has been asked. Then that moderator has to delete the offending thread to keep the people that don't want to see repeated threads posted...

See where this leads? O.L.F. Police...

So I stand by my previous post asking who wants to sign up?

Not at all, Bob. The last time that someone self-appointed themselves as the Lutherie police he earned such a poor reputation that he may never live it down.... Let's hope so too....

Nor is there any intent to assault each and every thread with the 1st Marine Division in an effort to let it be known that the search function should have been used.

It's been mentioned that some folks won't know, some will forget, some won't care.... etc. and it's my hope that we all continue to treat each other with respect and class anyway.

I've also specifically mentioned that the social aspects of the forum are important to me especially joking around with those who appreciate same and don't get all bent out of shape or feel singled out over it. No one wants to intentionally disrespect anyone.

But I have to say that if the core competency of the OLF is not all about Lutherie first and perhaps having a great time second our odds of avoiding breathing our own air any further are greatly diminished. More specifically if we want to learn about Lutherie on-topic discussion has to come first with quality, correct, safe, and readily available "on-topic" information. My bet too is that if put to a vote with learning vs. social aspects likely the learning would win. But I personally believe that the two can co-exist and hope so too.

I certainly may joke around with some folks here often but I also think that if one added up my own on-topic posts vs. talking about my Festool shop-vac named Monica I've kind of earned the privilege to have some fun here myself....eh... That wasn't a question by the way....

So I think, Bob, that you are presenting a false choice and a view that no one is advocating in the least. I'm also saying that I agree with you that the alternative that you described would not be my choice either.

A warning.... and this is not directed at Bob.

Forums have a tendency to greatly influence for better or worse how we learn to build guitars, etc. When a forum is dominated by a very few who have been successful others tend to adopt these methods for better or worse. An example would be Chuck's method of not using an outside mold when others, most here do and even Ken uses another variation of an outside mold. There is no correct or wrong or right here but only different. The OLF was dominated by outside mold users for a long time so these days Chuck finds himself having to spend time in the street protecting the honor of his preferred method of not using an outside mold.... Either method works and either method can produce a great instrument but you would not get this impression from all of the outside mold snobs here with me being one of them.

I've been on forums where ideas that have been advocated AND followed by most members were unsound and even unsafe.... Again I am not speaking of anything here on the OLF. What results is folks adopt what they see as unchallenged, sound advice and in time, if they stick with Lutherie may find themselves boxed into a corner that the current method will not provide an exit from.

When any on-line community is welcoming to all including experienced folks with a different view it's less likely that the poor advice proliferates simply because there is a greater likelihood that folks who are experienced will weigh-in and express their concerns.

Or, in other words, I was obsessed with learning this stuff and personally inhaled... it over and over again nearly 24/7 for years.... I wanted to learn so very badly that I traveled and did what ever I could to access folks in the know. I've met many of the folks that we might discuss and likely more than once too.

The point is how important is accurate information to folks here? If it is important for you to learn to be on the path to Lutherie success with no artificial impediments resulting from developing a poor foundation resulting from a self-limiting community that discourages participation at ALL levels it's important that we respect everyone. I also don't think that anyone is arguing to the contrary on this point and I suspect that most here really would like to succeed and learn a good, solid approach to doing what we do.

If you want to have pros here participating and not be a the mercy of the self-appointed only it is again respectfully requested that folks attempt to search for answers prior to starting a new thread especially with very common questions. Some will, some won't, so what, we will get over it and so too will I. But I would like to renew this long standing request as I have and if this does indeed seem like too much to ask you are also sending a message to others who might like to contribute here but may not be up to the BS....

Personally I can do this all day and deal with the redundant stuff as well - I've done it for years now.... But I too would like to learn something here for my own investment in time and in order for that to happen frankly some new members who have more experience have to want to participate here too. Is this too much to ask? If and when others with more experience than any us feel that the place is a safe bet for contributions and participation we will all be better for it. Learning remains paramount to me personally and my hope is that it has some importance to others as well.

Let me ponder a question , Lance , How hard / effective / would it be to have another small window by the topic Thread name that a person could enter a Key word .

IE: New thread ( I have a question about band saw blades ) Keyword : ( TPI )

the search would then look for Keywords instead of every possible word i could type in search that might be in that whole thread
Maybe a dumb idea , and only as effective as the person putting in keyword . Just a Thunk ?

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