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For a steel string acoustic, what brand and model of turners do you use. Why? Do you prefer the 21:1 of 18:1 ratio?

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EddieLee

I like Grover Sta-Tites, 18:1 open back tuners. Some other members have had an issue with one or more tuners in a pack being defective, but I have never had that issue in 10 sets so far. If I recall, the vendor or Grover rectified the problem quickly anyway. They look nice and they are not expensive, so I use them unless the customer wants different tuners.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

I like these sealed Gotohs: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guit ... uners.html

I have used the 510's as well, but don't care for the look. They are nice tuners in 18:1 and 21:1 but I'm not sure they're worth the extra cost over the standard Gotohs which IMO are excellent and very well priced. A lot of the time I'll switch out the metal buttons for wood to save a little weight plus I think wood buttons look a lot better.

I have used Grover Sta-tites for slot-head guitars, but have had a few bad ones and am coming around to Gotoh's open back tuners with brass gears. They're about $20 more but I think they're worth it over the Grovers. If the customer wants to pay for Waverly's they're the best.

James, were do you get the wood buttons to switch for the metal ones?

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EddieLee

I like Gotoh as well. I get mine shipped directly from Japan through a dealer in Vancouver. I can choose from any knob / finish I want for each instrument. It takes a week or three for delivery though.

Not to go too far off topic, but I'm contemplating my first slot head; any recommendations for a tuner?

http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-not ... and-screws

The ebony buttons are pretty cheap now at under $10 per set...

Gotoh,Waverly,Grover & Gilberts.
18:1

Mike

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Mike Collins

I've used Grover Sta-tites as well and hated them.

I figured out how to fix the wobbly capstan problem.

It doesn't eliminate gear lash, but the capstan will be tight when the strings are off.

I find that any tuner with a 21-1 gear ratio will have substantially less lash a tuner with 12-1 or 16-1, except Sperzels, which have virtually no lash due to the oversized flat-spiral worm gear and piston-tight capstan mount. I don't use those on my acoustics though as I find most acoustic players in my market prefer the higher turn ratio.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I just bought a set of Golden Age Restoration slot head tuners for $80 and I would not recommend them or buy them again. They look great but only 2 of the knobs would turn without sticking. I thought they just needed to be used a bit so I spun them up with my winder attached to a drill but that didn't help. I ended up having to adjust the bails with a pair of pliers just to get them to stop sticking. Now that I have them on the guitar they are hard to turn and are still sticky but also have slack in the gearing... I know people have said they are really good so maybe I just got a crap set but I wouldn't waste my money on them.

However they do look cool...

Bob

May as well ask StewMac for a replacement set. Would be good for both them and us to get a followup report on the forum here I was thinking about trying them next time I do a steel string for their extremely light weight. Especially the 3-on-a-plate kind. But I hate sloppy and/or hard to turn gears.

As for myself, I haven't built a regular steel string since developing my obsession with lightweight guitars, but it will definitely be open backs from here on out, because enclosed gears weight a ton and throw the balance off, being way out there on the end of the neck. I have a set of Sta-Tites I got in the classifieds a while back, so I'll give those a try at some point.

I prefer low gear ratios, so definitely no 21:1 on guitars for myself. Even 18:1 is higher than I'd like.

90% Gotohs and Waverys

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I like the Gotoh 510's I use the 21:1, they are quite smooth. Not so much with the 18:1's, some are fine but some are hard to turn. Haven't tried the open gear ones yet but I think I will this year. I have a set of the Waverly's on a martin and I have to say I'm not a big fan of them.

I had about a 1/2 dozen of the 510's that Peter Marreiros' brother picked up in Japan. That were a nice savings. Sad to say they are all long gone.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Ron, who's the dealer in Vancouver?

Gotohs for me mostly. The inexpensive one's from SM. I use black a lot and that one is very good for the price. And 510's for something a little fancier. 510's are very smooth.

I hate to hijack, but replacing metal buttons with wood on sealed tuners saves quite a bit of weight... I really wish the Gotoh open backs had removable buttons because with wood buttons they'd be close to ideal weight-wise IMO. Here are 4 common Gotoh tuners:

510s: 37.7g
Open backs: 23.7g
standard (Schaller-style) sealed: 35.5g
Standard sealed with ebony buttons: 27.9g

FWIW, Grover Sta-tite open backs are 27.5g (about the same as Gotoh sealed w/ ebony buttons) and the cool modernist looking Schertler open backs are 28.0g. Waverly's with ebony or ivoroid buttons are 21g; the lightest but most expensive of them all. If folks have lighter, affordable alternatives I'd be all ears.

Thanks for the stats, James. More weight in the buttons than I thought! I wonder if it's possible to pull the button off the open backs... I think I remember a post by Burton LeGeyt from a long time ago about doing some sort of replacement of press fit buttons. I'll have to go digging for it sometime. EDIT: Found it http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=393560#p393560

The Golden Age tuners RusRob had trouble with are even a little lighter than Waverly, and a lot cheaper, which is why I was hoping they'd be good. I need to try the StewMac economy tuners as well... only 19.25g, 14:1 ratio, and dirt cheap Even if I have to buy a bunch and pick through them to find good ones, they could be an option.

The Waverly 3 on a plate are good and spendy, but I mostly use the Golden Age unless a customer is futzy about their tuners. Sure, the GA's have some backlash, but they are the closest replica for vintage replica or old instruments. For 12 strings, you are pretty much stuck with GA's unless you want to spend a grand for Aleissi's.
They work as well as the original tuners on Stellas, Galiano's Nettuno's, Larson's, you name it. Guess I don't get all "panties in a bunch" about backlash. Play mandolin for a while and you learn about tuning with backlash.
Never had a problem with Sta-tites either for paddle heads, but agin, Waverlys are better.

I like schertlers - have used both but particularly like them on slotheads. I have a L00 13 fretter to put some on soon

Grover Stay tites usually for me too. Never had a problem with how they operate and I like the look
Gotoh's are nice too

If anyone looks at that link Dennis posted then don't do it that way! I hammer pulled a bunch of buttons off with no problems and then had a few that could not take it and ruined the tuners. I now use a dremel wheel to more or less cut the button off. someone else posted that and I had a Homer moment and DOh'd myself. Much better option.

I make tuner buttons to fit all styles of machines. I don't make all shapes though. mostly they are ovals in the Waverly style. They look pretty even on the closed back 510's.

Lightest I have found are the open backs, Waverly or Gotoh. The stealth tuners seemed so cool but don't seem like a long term option. I did machine down some Waverlies to be inset into the headstock and fit under a backplate. That made them a little lighter I guess but not much.

The best tuning machine I have ever seen is BY FAR Rodgers. I made a set of custom ivory period specifc buttons for Jimmy Caldwell and they were amazing. The gear was different than all the others, the mesh was bigger, and perfect. Here is a shot:

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

At one time I was building 22.9" scale 6's and 12's. I started doing that because I had a terrible problem with my left thumb and left elbow with arthritis.
I thought long and hard before I did this, but I bought 2 sets of Sta-Tites and 2 sets of Grover F style mandolin tuners. Pretty risky business, but I did combine and swap parts to make a pretty good set of 18/1 12 string tuners. Building a 23" scale 12 with heavy strings poses some very unusual problems. I knew the strings had to be VERY heavy to keep the instrument from sounding like it had rubber bands for strings. I figured the heavy strings and short scale might make tuning pretty twitchy, so I thought 18/1 tuners might just work. As the instrument is very squat (Prairie State style) with the very short scale, I also was aware of the length of the peghead and needed to make a short peghead to make the whole thing work. Mandolin tuner plates were just what I needed.
So, with 4 sets of tuners, I set out to make the first 12 string set...
Here's a photo of the various parts.



You can see the Sta-Tite plates, mandolin plates cut and fit, and at the rear, an assembled 12 string tuner.
I ended up pulling the metal buttons and installing the butter bean buttons to lighten things a lot. Now I had a set of tuners that I hoped would work...



Result? A nice short peghead and a 23" scale 12 string that I actually could play until I finally had a couple of operations. It is still one of my favorite 12 strings, the only draw back is that the posts are closer together than the standard 12 string spacing.



The peghead actually fits the guitar and makes a pleasing instrument with a BIG sound.



So, you can see that necessity really is the mother of invention.

I don't know where I saw these, but i found them and bought a pile of them.
My clients really like the neo classic look and they turn and tune like a dream.

And then there are http://www.ebay.com/itm/3R3L-Tuning-Key ... 258da6c8d4 "Gotoh Like" tuners. Has anyone ever tried them? For $18 shipping inc. I'm tempted just to have a closer look.

And then there are http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-GROVER- ... 258d43fbf8.

Claim to be genuine Grovers. I think Ebay takes their business of selling stuff pretty seriously. Would they allow forged knock off's.

Just checked their' feedback http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... gative_365 Too good to be true, Danny. I saw the same tuners at Long and Mcquaide a few years ago for around $45, but I can't remember if they were genuine or not.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker