Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Wed Jul 23, 2025 8:20 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:57 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:19 pm
Posts: 614
Location: Sugar Land, TX
First name: Ed
Last Name: Haney
City: Sugar Land (Houston)
State: Texas
Zip/Postal Code: 77479
Country: USA
Focus: Build
I have Dan Erlewine's book on fret work from StewMc. He clearly recommends that the fret tang excluding barbs should be exactly the same width as the fret slot width. So a .023" slot would get a fret tang width of .023" for normal necks (i.e. non-problem necks such as new necks, that you are not trying to correct for back bow or forward bow). After speaking with StewMc, who does not publish their tang with anywhere, they verbally told me that all their fret wire has a .023" tang width excluding barbs (Matt went and measured it, he said.). The table saw blade that StewMc sells for slotting is published as a blade for cutting .023" slots. (Frankly, I was more than surprised that their fret saw blade, fret wire, and step-by-step fretting book all matched up!)

As a comparrison, LMI does publish their tang width and it is .020" excluding barbs. They also say that the .020" tang is correct for a .023" fret slot and they sell a .023" table saw blade for slotting. So over 14 frets LMI recommends 14x.003"=.042" more slop than the zero amount that StewMc and Dan Erlewine reommends. To me, that is a big difference.

For a non-problem new neck (nothing to correct), what fret tang width excluding barbs do you use with what fret slot width? Why (i.e. what is your rational)?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:02 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:57 pm
Posts: 903
Location: London, England
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Excellent question, can't wait to see the responses!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:12 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 7541
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I know that I wish I could find an .025 fret slotting blade. I prefer the slots to be a bit wider than the frets, so much so that I usually burn the slots a little wider with a hot knife.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:19 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:14 pm
Posts: 439
First name: Mike
Last Name: Imbler
City: Wichita
State: KS
Zip/Postal Code: 67204
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Ed, you made a mistake compounding the error over 14 frets. Assuming each fret slot is in the correct position, any individual fret could be off by only the .003. If you were cutting the slots based off of the position of the previous fret, your assumption would be possible, but the slots are cut independently, so the error cannot compound,
Mike



These users thanked the author Imbler for the post: dzsmith (Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:15 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:52 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 7:34 am
Posts: 138
First name: David
Last Name: Ingalls
City: Ashland
State: OR
Zip/Postal Code: 97520
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
meddlingfool wrote:
I know that I wish I could find an .025 fret slotting blade. I prefer the slots to be a bit wider than the frets, so much so that I usually burn the slots a little wider with a hot knife.


I use 5" .023 and .025 blades from this outfit:

http://www.malcosaw.com/ecom/category/11/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:57 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:19 pm
Posts: 614
Location: Sugar Land, TX
First name: Ed
Last Name: Haney
City: Sugar Land (Houston)
State: Texas
Zip/Postal Code: 77479
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Imbler wrote:
Ed, you made a mistake compounding the error over 14 frets. Assuming each fret slot is in the correct position, any individual fret could be off by only the .003. If you were cutting the slots based off of the position of the previous fret, your assumption would be possible, but the slots are cut independently, so the error cannot compound,
Mike


Thanks, Mike. I was/am not concerned with the fret slot location. All the slots would be centered on their correct location and would not be a problem.

My concern is that forward bow would be allowed if there is too much slot space which will compound. The truss rod could be used to combat some or all of this, but I think it best not to design in a potential problem and hope to fix it with the truss rod. But if LMI is "correct", there would be no problem and perhaps Dan's approach would produce a forward bow (but I doubt it since he usually gives good advice).

It seems to me that LMI and StewMc are significantly different. If both approaches work equally well, then the range of "correct" sizing is larger than I expected. I would think that the LMI extra space might requre hide glue or the like to fill the void, but LMI does not mention the need of such. No space, as Dan recommends, would seem to risk a back bow due to the barbs.

I hope to see some specific experiences of others with thier reasoning.


Last edited by Ed Haney on Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:05 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:19 pm
Posts: 614
Location: Sugar Land, TX
First name: Ed
Last Name: Haney
City: Sugar Land (Houston)
State: Texas
Zip/Postal Code: 77479
Country: USA
Focus: Build
meddlingfool wrote:
I know that I wish I could find an .025 fret slotting blade. I prefer the slots to be a bit wider than the frets, so much so that I usually burn the slots a little wider with a hot knife.


LMI has .025" blade (as well as the .023" blade) here http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-not ... ing-system


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:27 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 7541
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Well, that's going to make my life a lot easier. Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:45 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:14 pm
Posts: 439
First name: Mike
Last Name: Imbler
City: Wichita
State: KS
Zip/Postal Code: 67204
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Ah, I see what you were saying now Ed, I misinterpreted your post. Thanks for the explanation!
Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:28 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 2764
First name: Tom
Last Name: West
State: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ed: If I follow you correctly, your thinking that the stiffness of the neck is mainly determined by the fit of the tangs into the fret slots. While back bow can be introduced by tight frets I don't think it is a necessity, also frets that are a bit looser and do not cause back bow are generally OK. Lots of folks glue frets in both for lubrication and fit with holding power. That along with the stiffness of the neck with a good truss rule the day as long as the slots and frets are reasonably sized. The sizes you give fall in that range for me.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!



These users thanked the author Tom West for the post: Ed Haney (Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:32 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:44 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:19 pm
Posts: 614
Location: Sugar Land, TX
First name: Ed
Last Name: Haney
City: Sugar Land (Houston)
State: Texas
Zip/Postal Code: 77479
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Tom West wrote:
Ed: If I follow you correctly, your thinking that the stiffness of the neck is mainly determined by the fit of the tangs into the fret slots. While back bow can be introduced by tight frets I don't think it is a necessity, also frets that are a bit looser and do not cause back bow are generally OK. Lots of folks glue frets in both for lubrication and fit with holding power. That along with the stiffness of the neck with a good truss rule the day as long as the slots and frets are reasonably sized. The sizes you give fall in that range for me.
Tom


Thanks for your answer, Tom.

I do not think that "the stiffness of the neck is mainly determined by the fit of the tangs into the fret slots". I just think that it is a factor. Dan E. thinks that it is an important factor. He suggests that if I remove the frets and restring the guitar that I will see a large forward bow that the truss rod would never be able to remove. He suggests this test just to show that the fret slot does impact the stiffness of the neck and therefore the width of the fret slots Vs the tang width is an important consideration. So what is best? Dan thinks that .003" of extra space per slot (the difference between the tang and the slot) is too much for a proper fret job without glue. With .003" of space Dan would recommend adding glue to fill the void (and hold the fret in). My reason for starting this tread is to find out what others experience are. If one is always using glue then the extra space would seem to become a non-issue.

What should the fit be without glue? Is .000" to .003" a good reasonable range? Or is .000" to tight? Or .003" too much? Just asking for experience and wanting to learn.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:51 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 2764
First name: Tom
Last Name: West
State: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ed: Very good, I get where you are coming from. Dan has his own preferences. I have just never seen this as a major problem, maybe because I glue my frets and use a good solid truss rod.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:26 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:29 am
Posts: 1384
Location: United States
I've been thinking about this lately-
I'm at work now but can add more to this later this weekend. I just had some fret saws ground to thousandth steps (.02, .021, .022, .023) so I could control it more closely. I had to make a new arbor to use the 1" hole saws on my table saw.

Attachment:
JD-arbor-and-fret-saws.jpg


Think about bar frets and compression fretting, it HAS to make a difference how tightly they fit. I do not trust glue to stop the wood from compressing a bit around a loose fitted fret. Not that it doesn't still work as many many guitars show. However, if you are building for lasting effect I think you have to take it into account-


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.



These users thanked the author Burton LeGeyt for the post: Ed Haney (Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:18 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:42 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 2764
First name: Tom
Last Name: West
State: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Burton: Your absolutely correct if you are using compression fretting. Most likely with no truss rod. Otherwise with the given parameters I don't think it matters a hill of beans. If the guitar holds a given amount of relief,as set by the truss and any excess space is taken up with glue, things will work as they should. I see compression fretting and regular fretting as apples and oranges.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:59 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:29 am
Posts: 1384
Location: United States
Tom, fair enough-

I think it depends on if you see the truss rod as something that is a structural part of the guitar or as insurance.

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:04 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 2764
First name: Tom
Last Name: West
State: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Burton: Just for info. I use the Martin copy made from aluminum u channel and epoxy it in place. I think it stiffen the neck quite nicely........................I sense all the engineers hitting the calculators and coming back with "impossible". :D It works for me. Take care.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:10 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 2485
Location: Argyle New York
First name: Mike/Mikey/Michael/hey you!
Last Name: Collins
City: Argyle
State: New York
Zip/Postal Code: 12809
Country: U.S.A. /America-yea!!
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I do not know if Shane at HMTW has any blades
left but his are .0245
Just perfect!
For .023 wire.

Mike

_________________
Mike Collins


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:37 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 4:05 am
Posts: 36
Location: Boulder, Colorado
First name: Chris
Last Name: Conery
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
My secret to effective fretting is to use the Stewmac table saw blade (0.023 kerf), LMI fret wire (0.023), and the LMI fretting backsaw (0.023). When I run the backsaw through the slots made on the table saw, even though they all claim to be the same size, the slots become just enough wider to make installation easy and secure.

Cheers,
Chris

_________________
http://coneryguitars.com

Kill your television!



These users thanked the author Chris.Conery for the post: Ed Haney (Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:17 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:17 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:19 pm
Posts: 614
Location: Sugar Land, TX
First name: Ed
Last Name: Haney
City: Sugar Land (Houston)
State: Texas
Zip/Postal Code: 77479
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Chris.Conery wrote:
My secret to effective fretting is to use the Stewmac table saw blade (0.023 kerf), LMI fret wire (0.023), and the LMI fretting backsaw (0.023). When I run the backsaw through the slots made on the table saw, even though they all claim to be the same size, the slots become just enough wider to make installation easy and secure.

Cheers,
Chris


Chris,

I take it that you agree with Dan E since you are using the same size tang and fret slot (both .023"). Unstrung, do you have any back bow or is your new neck straight or what?

I assume you have used feeler gages to determine your slot size (no rocking of the feeler gage in the slot)?

On the current LMI site I count 11 wires with .020" tang, 1 wire (Evo, gold mandolin/dulcimer wire) with .023" tang, 1 wire with .019" tang, and 2 wires with .024" tang. Are you using the mandolin wire? Or do you have some old stock of a previous wire?

Thanks for your input.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:44 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 4:05 am
Posts: 36
Location: Boulder, Colorado
First name: Chris
Last Name: Conery
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Ed-

I stand corrected - the fret wire I use does indeed have a tang width of 0.020. So with the saw blade of 0.023 and some extra widening by the back saw I'm probably working with a slot of 0.024 or 0.025. So the extra 4 or 5 thousandths makes it easy to install the frets, they certainly don't come out, and there is no back bow - everything stays pretty darn flat. I'll take a feeler gauge to it tomorrow.

_________________
http://coneryguitars.com

Kill your television!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: rbuddy and 26 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com