Official Luthiers Forum!

I sent this email to a number of my luthier friends and thought maybe the folks on the OLF might be interested in the content. Bear in mind, this is just one person's opinion.

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Dear fellow impoverished artisans,

I wanted to share a bit about my thoughts on fretwire which I think might be interesting to some of you. What prompted this whole internal discussion of what fretwire to use is threefold: aesthetics, durability, and tone. I have recently discovered that EVO fretwire seems to oxidize (not sure if that is what's actually happening). I always assumed that the method of polishing the wire during fretwork is what yields the pleasing white-gold appearance that describes my experience with the EVO wire. I incorrectly assumed that the more potent gold hue that the bulk coil arrives in was due to a lesser sheen on the EVO wire. I have heard other builders and players mention this -- "When you polish it up, it doesn't look very gold", etc. However, the white-gold appearance is due to removal of the surface "tarnish" and is not at all related to how smooth the surface is. Since I rarely see my instruments after they leave my shop, I discovered this when one of my customers took it to a gathering and a person in attendance there was a professional photographer. I've included photos that show the difference in color of the EVO wire over time on this guitar. I recently confirmed this experience with another builder a few days ago who at one point was using the EVO wire but switched back to regular wire because of the changing appearance over time.

In short, I strongly dislike the color of the EVO wire, except for that brief initial period wherein it looks very nice. This left me with the option of stainless steel frets or regular nickel/silver wire. I use stainless steel frets for the first few years I was building guitars and like it -- but the "myth" of SS frets sounding tinny or bright was a big marketing deterrent for me and I eventually switched to EVO because I thought it looked nice and it wears beautifully. I never heard any tonal differences when switching fretwire and quite honestly, thought the idea of frets affecting tone a bit silly. Since I had decided to not use EVO wire by default anymore, I reconsidered switching back to SS frets but the tonal issue was something that bothered me as it is a belief held by more than just a few people. Also, Bob Taylor commented negatively regarding their experience with SS frets and his opinion does hold weight. I don't have the best hearing and so I thought about how a good test could be run. Fortunately, I currently have one of my early guitars with SS frets in the shop for a couple weeks -- so it was a good time to run some tests. I tried a number of things but nothing really allowed me a fair/good comparison. FYI, I could not hear this "ping" quality to the note that some players swear occurs with SS fretwire on this guitar at all.

And then a good solution occurred to me -- I removed the tang from a short length of some EVO wire. The height was just a few thousandths above the SS wire on the guitar I was using. I placed the EVO wire directly behind a fret and plucked the string. I then released the string and the EVO wire would fall away and I would pluck the string again, this time with the string fretting the SS wire. I did not get any buzzing and was getting a very solid note for the test. I tried a number of fret locations and had a family member with excellent hearing in attendance. Much to my surprise, when comparing the two, I could definitely hear a "hollow/tinny" quality in the initial attack on the SS wire. This tinny "ping" in the attack disappears completely after a millisecond and no discernible difference could be heard during the rest of the note. I believe this affect would be much more noticeable on unamplified electric guitars - which sure enough, tend to be the folks who have mentioned the tonal difference with the SS fretwire. I was honestly very surprised as I was expecting tonal difference for a fret to be a complete non-issue. I believe there is some aspect of the hardness of the wire that just causes the string to not "anchor" during the attack the same way softer fretwire allows. The EVO wire just had a solid quality to the attack that was definitely lacking in the SS wire. For the record, the "ping" during the attack with SS wire was heard consistently up and down the fretboard - in other words, it isn't something that was heard occasionally but an actual difference in sound that was consistent and real. I honestly don't believe that most players will notice this difference but I would absolutely consider SS wire to be an inferior option in regards to tone. And so, I am going back to regular nickel/silver wire. For those of you using SS frets and EVO fretwire, I thought these tonal and aesthetic observations might be of some use. Of course, this is just one person's opinion but I do try to approach things without bias and so I think the opinion does have merit. I am really hoping that we eventually get a better looking alternative to the EVO with similar hardness and wear properties.

Best Regards,
Simon

I recently reworked some Evo frets on a guitar I built about 3 1/2 years ago. I could definitely see the oxidation you referred to; much like you would see on old brass. Cleaned up easy with micro mesh.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

tl;dr freshly surfaced Evo wire isn't what it will ultimately look like, SS wire tone myths are true

Thanks for posting I love the Evo color on some guitars, most could go either way, and others look much better with silver.

I have wondered about the SS tone. I bought a spool back when I first started building, but haven't actually fretted a guitar with it yet due to the difficulty of working with it. Kind of a relief that the result wasn't that it sounds better Now I don't have to feel so bad about taking the easy route. Guess I'll put it up for sale in the classifieds sometime since I probably wasn't ever going to get around to using it anyway.

I've done partial refrets with stainless steel myself and haven't noticed this actual difference going across the frets. Neither have any of my clients.

All the guitars that I've refretted with stainless steel frets have been considered unchanged or improved by the clients getting them. Of course, I would expect a refret to be an improvement anyway.

I've had people with MUCH better ears than I evaluating guitars I've made with stainless steel frets, including a producer/sound engineer who I've found to have an incredible set of ears as well as an encyclopedic knowledge of musical styles. He had me refret all his guitars with stainless steel after I did one of his guitars. He was skeptical at first specifically because of what Bob Taylor had to say about it, but has since changed his mind.

Shaun Hopper, a client of mine as well, loves the stainless steel wire, I've redone all his guitars as well.

I'm chalking this thread up as yet another anecdotal story with a sample size of 1, and therefore is inconclusive.

I still believe that most of the industry recalcitrance to stainless steel wire has to more with it's difficult working properties than it's tonal properties.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Hi Todd,
I generally don't have silly ideas -- and anyone who knows me at all would agree with that conclusion.

A couple points, yes indeed, the EVO wire is easy to restore and make attractive; however, I really don't want to have guitars out there that look bad unless people keep them polished. Otherwise, I would continue to use the EVO because I feel it is a superior fretwire.

The stainless steel fret and tone debate is not silly. No one could possibly disagree with your statement that proper fret installation is more important than the fret material - but the issue only concerns properly installed frets. Additionally, this is my guitar we are talking about and my fretwork is as good as can possibly be done. Additionally, if anything my bias was in favor of the SS fretwire because I would prefer to use it over regular nickel/silver fretwire. I had worked with it for years and I prefer the look, the feel, and noticed no tonal differences. Since so many folks had commented on the tone - I wanted to at least investigate the possibility that there was some substance to the claim. I am not asking anyone to just believe me -- but my little experiment is quite easy to duplicate and IMO, is a really fantastic method for comparing fretwire. I tried it again today -- the SS fretwire has a hollow quality to the attack, IMO. Others may not hear but a non guitar playing family member heard it as well. The difference is consistent up and down the fretboard. I could not pick out the tone based on just hearing it -- but when you compare the SS fret to EVO on the same guitar at the same pitch, I do notice a difference -- because of this I do view the SS fret as being an inferior fretwire as regards tone.

**Anyone wishing to duplicate this experiment -- feel free to give me a call as I can give you a few pointers.

One last point, my guitar with SS frets still sounds very good. The tone is very warm and not bright at all. In other words, I do not think SS frets sound bad - they just produce a tone during the attack that I find less pleasing than EVO wire.

As with everything, keep an open but skeptical mind.

Best Regards,
Simon

I was hoping this subject would come up.

Simon,

I wish the EVO fret was actually seated in a fret slot. IMO the ability to truly AB the tone is still flawed.

PS I'll buy your stainless fret wire if you are serious about selling it. PM me with details

Perhaps you can video it and pop it up? Maybe demonstrate what you did so others can try it out for themselves? Unfortunately the descriptive "hollow quality to the attack" doesn't really convey much.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

To my mind... I'd much rather have a very subtle differecne/flaw in tone rather than subjecting a precious instrument to an invasive procedure, a fret job. Working with stainless isn't hard, it just take a little longer.

M

This makes a very good point. I was kinda thinking this in the back of my mind but the thought never fully materialized in my brain.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

A more accurate experiment would be to pull the first fret on a guitar, fret one side of the Board to the centreline with Evo and the other with SS and then string it symmetrically with say Two High e strings, two d two low E.

That way both fret types would be properly bedded and you would be able to do a real time comparison

I think some people are missing the point here. My views on what I think look good are entirely subjective. The point is not that EVO gold wire looks good or bad. The point is that the polishing process reduces the gold look of the EVO wire and that this state doesn't last long. In other words, the way the EVO wire looks when you first receive it is its REAL color and is the way the frets will look again once the surfaces tarnishes/oxidizes (or whatever it is that is happening). For me, the aesthetics of EVO wire are desirable right after your work and polish it BUT not after it returns to its initial state. You might totally disagree and that wouldn't make you wrong!!!

Regarding the tone of stainless steel frets and uploading videos -- this is a simple experiment and you all can easily duplicate the setup with about 5 minutes. I believe that the substitute fret I introduce into the experiment is making perfect contact and is not introducing any variables. If that bothers you then you can do the experiment and use all 3 different materials for the substitute fretwire -- that would completely eliminate the "seating" variable if that bothers you. I really don't see any valid objections to why this isn't an accurate representation and I thought the experiment was phenomenally simple, which is usually a good thing. You all may not hear what I did -- if that is the case, I would love to hear your thoughts. I have not been stating facts -- just my experience which I think is the best attempt I have seen at deciding whether they type of fretwire makes a noticeable difference on tone. My opinion after the experiment is that it makes a barely noticeable difference in tone but a difference nonetheless.

If anyone wants more details on what I've done, feel free to give me a call (386.690.2567) and I will run you through the setup.

Best Regards,
Simon

Jeff -- that is a fantastic observation and indeed a better designed test but more work than I would want to do. Quite honestly, this "substitute" fret works beautifully. The tone is full and there is perfect contact -- I am not sure why that aspect of the test bothers folks. Try it first and I believe that you will agree that it is very representative of a seated fret. As I mentioned, just above -- you could use 3 different fret material for the substitute fret or you could do a more elaborate setup like Jeff suggests -- I just didn't feel that was necessary. Of course, I could be wrong but I don't think I am and felt this information was worth sharing. Once again, this is something that everyone can do within a couple minutes. Okay guys, that is it for me on the subject -- do give me a call if you want some instructions as there are nuances to the test that may be useful -- call anytime.

Best Regards,
Simon

I don't have any EVO fretwire, and don't really want to order any just to do that with it. I figured maybe you could just pop up a video since you say it's easy and you're already set up to do it.

I'm just really curious as to what you're seeing and doing.

I've been watching videos on YouTube of these types of comparisons since you started this thread.

I could tell a difference in one or two videos, but most were no difference at all.

All the videos where I noticed a difference have been improvements, with a noticeable increase in volume and sustain on the steel frets. These have been on cheap guitars, and I'm thinking the newly installed steel frets are simply installed better and that can account for the difference in those cases.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

Hi Guitarwhisperer,
I don't have any video recording equipment -- no camera phone or anything. Bear in mind, I build guitars for a living and so I eat ramen and own a $15 cellphone I can thoroughly explain the process over the phone in a few minutes. Personally, I don't believe you will be able to capture the nuances of what I perceive to be the tonal differences with video recording equipment unless you are dealing with ultra expensive equipment.

Best Regards,
Simon

If it's not "argumentum ad hominid", does that mean it's directed at primates more generally?

I am not upset at all, guys -- I just don't tend to post much on the OLF anymore because this kind of stuff happens.

The simple fact is I shared an experience on what is a very subjective topic. I discussed a rather simple experiment that I still believe has good methodology to it. To dispute the validity of the test would require showing that the "substitute" fret acts differently than a seated fret which I don't think is the case - otherwise, all other variables are kept the same. The methodology of this test was strong enough that I felt it offered a good way to test the "tone" caused by fret material; hence, the reason for sharing. I am a relatively smart guy -- my background was in Biochemistry and I am very well aware of the complexity of variables in tests and the effect that has on the relevance of the data. Also, my conclusions were not state as objective truths but rather as my own personal opinions and that should be taken as such.

If you look at some of the responses - they were dismissive rather than informative, corrective, or pro-active. I like the OLF and many of the people on it -- I just don't find making posts a fun experience anymore especially if the topic has any degree of controversy.

You're not alone there.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

My post was meant to explain my experience in comparison to your experiment results.

That's all.

In my book that constitutes "informative"

I was hoping to actually be able to see what you were talking about, as the description of the effect is meaningless to me without an audible clue.

I was inspired to go looking for YouTube videos on the subject as a comparison as well. That's "proactive".

Todd had comments on your methodology, delivered in a surprisingly eloquent tone (for Todd, anyway). That's "corrective".

Michael Colbert also had questions about the methodology, IE the fret not being seated, also "corrective".

That's three of the five respondents, and so I don't see what you mean by "This kind of stuff happens".

So if I've offended you, I apologize, but I don't see anything controversial happening.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

We should move on too less subjective things like "tap tuning "

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MK5acoustics.com

Simon,

If my posts were short or dismissive I sincerely apologize. I was attempting to be part the conversation. Writing is not one of my favorite activities.

Best regards,

Michael

PS I was serious about purchasing your SS fret wire..

This is a very subjective topic, and I can't buy the assumption that the "substitute" fret acts the same as a seated fret, and since this is all subjective and qualitative, there's no way to verify(or disprove) the assumption.

It would be pretty simple to do the test with substitute frets made from all three materials, that would at least validate the comparison. I'm not sure how much meaning those results would have, there's still the fact that the results are from an unseated fret.
I believe there's a much better chance that the differences observed between the substitute frets of different materials would be consistent with differences of seated frets of different material.

Thanks for the info, any kind of subjective or qualitative data like this is useful, particularly to those of us that can't hear those differences. I'm well aware that there are sounds that I can't hear!

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

...agreed



http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii22 ... de2299.jpg

I didn't even know there was three kinds of wire.

Yeah, showing my progress on the learning curve here. As for Todd's descriptions of the types of posts, very well put. But I will add one more, and that is the controversial post where people have different opinions. There have been several such posts that have helped me to understand. Asking a question that everyone has the same answer to is one thing. But something with different responses, well that is a real gem of an opportunity for a new builder like myself to learn something. Especially if it gets inside the chaos envelope. In a previous life, I lived inside that envelope, chasing tolerances around all the time. So such discussions as this are helpful to me. So those who questioned the methodology, well that just tells me there is enough interest for people to think seriously about it, and ask questions.

And yes, I am waiting to get my nerve up to start a post on tap tuning. I know it will be contentious, but since the opinions are so strong, it just looks like too good an opportunity to learn from the different points of view.

Now you got me curious, and I want to see just what kind of wire I bought for my first one, that I haven't gotten to installing yet. See? I learnt sump'n!

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I thought the more important reason for using it was duability. That's what swung me over to it. I don't think I've ever had someone pick up any of my Evos fretted guitars and say "hey, these frets are gold!" But it is nice to have colour match options. I'm inclined to think players would rarely notice unless they see gold and nickel side by side or you point it out.

Sorry, a little off topic. I did just have a look at my 3 year old Evos fretted shop guitar. I see no signs of this corrosion you speak of. Probably has something to do with the lovely climate here in Lotus Land.

Okay, so I will be blunt here -- I think you guys can handle it.

Guitarwhisperer -- I thought your posts were fine, no offense taken.

Todd, I felt your wording in the first post was dismissive -- such that I needed to go on the defensive a bit. I didn't take personal offense but please realize, I build guitars professionally and if a player reads these comments, it is important for me that I don't appear as if I don't know what I'm talking about.

Fillippo, sometimes you come across as a bit of a jerk. I've done business with you before and pm'd back and forth a couple times and I know you are a nice guy -- so I give your posts a lot of leeway and it would take a lot for me to get offended by one of your posts. But you writing style is often blunt and rude -- you could say things with the same number of words but in a more respectful manner but you choose not too.


I have no problems with people disagreeing with my post. I am the type of builder who has actively sought out criticism of my work so that I could improve and feel that my ego is never in the foreground. For the record, consider this kind of response:

"Simon, thanks for sharing. Interesting information on the EVO wire; however, I like the gold color so that wouldn't be an issue for me personally. You also might not realize that regular nickel/silver wire "corrodes" over time as well -- so no fretwire will look as good as when it first leaves the shop. Regarding the experiment, I have a hard time believing that fretwire causes a tonal difference, at least not to a noticeable degree. I think other issues regarding the quality of fretwork and string type would be more significant. Interesting experiment but I wonder if the fact that the variable of the fretwire material is made irrelevant because the substitute wire isn't seated. Any thoughts?"

Folks, that is more along what I consider to be engaging and furthering the conversation. As I mentioned, I just don't find posting a pleasant experience any more unless the threads are light-hearted subjects (both Filippo and Tony and others can be downright hilarious) and I do enjoy checking the OLF every now and then. I am not upset or offended at all -- but this is probably the last thread/post of mine that will contain any advice or information sharing. Instead, I will just come for the interesting build threads and fun postings and let other people offer advice. Of course, anyone that ever wants to ask me a question is welcome to call or email.

Best Regards,
Simon