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Greetings,

I am sorry if this has been asked before, I tried searching for "Zero Fret" but the only results I got back were for "Fret" and you can imagine how many irrelevant results that brought up.

I recently bought a LMI Parlor kit which will be my first build. I custom ordered it with a Gibson style dovetail neck and a 24.9" fretboard. I had the fretboard slotted by LMI since I wanted to minimize problems since I have never cut a new fretboard before. I have a lot of experience with guitar repair but as you know that doesn't necessarily make me an expert at building.

My problem...


1. The fretboard is slotted for a Zero Fret but I prefer not to have one. I am most familiar with setting up a guitar with just a nut and no Zero Fret so I don't know the pro's and con's of having one. Can someone enlighten me on it?

2. If I decide to cut the Zero Slot off then I am going to have to shave down the headstock to bring the headstock veneer down to keep my 14th fret over the gap in the dovetail. What is the best way to plane down the headstock?

Any help of advice would be most welcome.

Bob

Bob:
I prefer a zero fret on my ukuleles, less trouble.
Watch out for the nut-to-first fret distance when you cut it down. You are removing wood on both sides of the zero position. It is a detail but can alter the first fret tone.

Bob

I think I have the concept down that the nut will need to be in the same place where the zero fret would be but that would mean I would have to put the nut on the plane of the fretboard but the headstock angle would be about 1/4" above that. The headstock veneer would not be able to come down to the nut because of the angle.

After my measurement it appears I have to plane the face of the headstock the same thickness as the headstock veneer which would then put the angle right at the nut.

If I didn't make myself clear I can post a picture of what I have (if that would help).

But my question was actually 1. what are the pro's and con's of having the Zero Fret. And 2 what is the best way to plane the face of the headstock if I decide to cut the Zero Fret off.

I have heard of guys using a round planer that attaches to your drill press (I forget the name of the tool) but I think they quit making them. So I need an alternate way of doing it.

OK, Here is a picture of what I am talking about. Notice how the nut will be well onto the fretboard? You will notice I have marked the fret position on the side of the neck? That is where the 14th fret is in the correct position and the 15th fret is directly over the gap for the dovetail.

Maybe I am missing something when I talk about planing the headstock down. Could it be I have the wrong neck?

You can't move the fretboard a little north? That would fix your problem.

The reason for zero frets is to make setup faster/easier although I've never done it. Makes sense though. Some people swear it produces open notes that sound more consistent with fretted notes but honestly that isn't an issue unless you're using pine as a nut material.

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http://www.tinyhouseandland.com

What is the scale length of the fret board and what is the intended scale for the guitar? At what fret will the neck meet the body?
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

I have never used a zerofret but I have noticed that a capo produces open string sounds more consistent with fretted notes. Bone always seems to dampen the open notes somewhat. At least that's my impression.

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

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Under Compensated Nut!

Something seems wrong with that neck and fretboard. Lets assume you were going to use a zero fret, you would still need a nut to maintain string spacing. The amount of room on the end of the neck seems WAY big to me. If the sample nut you are holding up in the pic is .25" wide, it wont fill the space on the end of the fret board between the end of the FB and where the angle starts on the head stock.
I'm not trying to insult you or your ability to count, but are you sure you counted the frets correctly? I have never built the LMII parlor kit, but I don't think Gibson used a zero fret.
If the nut is supposed to sit on the angled face of the head stock, and you miscounted the fret board by one fret, and you have the body join at the 13th and not the 14th, all you need to do is move the fret board up so it ends at the angle of the peg head. All of your troubles would be solved. That's what it looks like to me.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

I don't think you can get away with shaving off too much of that head stock, a bit maybe and use thicker overlays. That and joining at the 14th and 1/8in fret might work out. You also could add a wedge of the same material of your overlay to fill in the triangle created by the overhang the overlay makes as it ramps up to the nut, that would be easy to do.

As for zero frets, they have unfortunately been associated with cheap guitars. I've always avoided them till I built my first Selmer guitar last year. In keeping with the tradition I used a zero fret and I rather like it.

It looks like you were sent a 25.4" scale neck. Try measuring the neck to see if the distance is for a 25.4" neck. From the nut to the 14th fret is 14.08" for a 25.4" neck. For a 24.9" it is 13.8". You might need to add .25" if the kit is expecting you to put the nut on the fretboard side of the head stock angle.

My suspicion is that zero frets were done in factories because they were a bit easier to crank out (nuts are way easier/faster to cut when they just guide the string from side to side) and reasons for their superiority were thought of after the fact. I can't really back that up - I just say that because historically they all seemed to exist at about the same time.

It is possible that it helps reduce the end tension that makes the early frets go sharp and clean up intonation, especially for open chords. But, compensating does the same thing. Most compensated systems basically just move the nut closer to the first fret by .020" or .030" - some systems go beyond that, but that is the basic starting point for most of them.

I'm not a fan because I could never get the tuning stability right - you have two fulcrums at the head instead of one, so is poses similar problems as having string trees on Fenders. Maybe there is a trick to it that I haven't figured out yet.

Tonally, I guess it is subjective. The open notes will sound more like fretted notes, but whether that is a good thing or not is where the subjectivity comes in. Sometimes on a bass it is frustrating when an open string rings much louder than a fretted string, so I can see some bass players preferring it, but most guitar players use that phenomenon to their advantage and would miss it.

Tony might have the answer here, and that is not an indictment of your counting ability. I use a zero fret and miscount all the time during layout. There is just so much temptation to start counting slots at 1 instead of zero. I like to count the slots "zero, one, two. . ." then mark the body joint slot so I don't forget the next time.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Thank you all for the advice and input. It surprised me a bit when I saw there were so many of you that want to help here. I tried asking the same question on another building forum but I left when I got yelled at by the moderator for putting a space between paragraphs... and scolded about advertising products that were not their sponsors... So I very much appreciate the friendly atmosphere of this place.

About the nut, If you look at the picture I posted I have it shown as if I were going to remove the Zero fret. If I place the nut on the neck as if I were going to leave the Zero Fret then the nut fills that gap between the fretboard and the angle line of the headstock. So it may be just the camera angle that makes it appear the nut is too thin.

I did count the slots correctly starting at Zero, One, Two.... The 14th fret is exactly at the end of the fretboard where the body meets.

The measurement I get on the fretboard (From the Zero Fret) is 13.8" which is the correct measurement for 24.9 scale

I am a bit confused with the neck.

If I place the nut on the fretboard side right where the angle of the headstock starts I get a measurement of 14" to the 14th fret.

If I measure from where the zero fret is (as in the picture) I get 13.8"

So it works out perfectly for a 24.9 scale on the neck and fretboard if I keep the Zero Fret. If I remove the Zero Fret then I either have a very large gap between the nut and the angle of the headstock. If I move the fretboard up then my 14th fret will not sit at the edge of the body (with will mean the 15th fret does not sit over the gap in the dovetail joint (problem for a later neck reset or removal)

That is why I was asking about planing the headstock down.

Currently the headstock is 1/2" thick. My headstock veneer is 1/4"

If I were to plane 1/4" off the top of my headstock that will move the angle down to meet the point where the nut sits (without the Zero Fret)

I hope that is clear.. I think I am starting to confuse myself...

I'm out of ideas. I'm cancelling that money back policy. It is costing me too much money. Especially in all of the "what wood is this" threads.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Sounds to me like you got the wrong neck. "If I place the nut on the fretboard side right where the angle of the headstock starts I get a measurement of 14" to the 14th fret." That measurement should be about 13 3/4", to match your FB scale from zero/nut to 14th fret.

"So it works out perfectly for a 24.9 scale on the neck and fretboard if I keep the Zero Fret." I think that's just a coincidence. You shouldn't have gotten a neck made for a zero fret unless you specified that.

I would not plane down the headstock. Just exchange the neck for the correct one.

1/4" is extraordinarily thick for a headstock veneer. Normally they are 1/16" or less.

Personally, I don't like zero frets.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I had an idea that it was wrong but wasn't exactly sure so I really appreciate all your help in sorting this out.

At least now I can call them and have a better idea of what I am talking about.

Thank you all for the help.

Bob

I've purchased serviced FBs from LMI and they always have some excess above what will be the nut (what I believe you are calling the zero fret). Have just cut the board at that first "fret" slot and touched to exactly the soundhole side of that slot so it's clean and 90 degrees to fit the nut above it. Thus the real fret #1 is the second fret slot on the serviced blank. Hope that makes sense.

I just checked LMI site and they don't sell a dovetail neck for the 24.9 scale length. They have bolt on necks in 12 fret slot head and 14 fret paddle for that scale length. I'm not sure which plan comes with the parlor kit but would imagine it is a 12 fret join. Check your plan, check your abilities, order the appropriate neck. If you need a neck that LMI doesn't supply, look up Hanalei Moon.

It may be the wrong neck, but it will certainly work.
Use a zero fret, it's a good idea.
Put the fretboard right where you have it, with the nut right up against it. I always have the nut sitting on the fretboard plane, not the face of the headstock.
Install the headstock veneer so that it butts up to the back of the nut, creating a nut slot.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

I just called LMI and it appears I did order the wrong neck.

StevenWheeler hit it right on the head. The Dovetail neck only comes in the 25.4" scale.

I ordered that neck because I am very familiar with with setting a dovetail neck and I just figured I would get the correct scale neck.

I could have made it work as Rodger Knox suggested but I prefer not to have a Zero Fret. Again I am comfortable with setting up a guitar with a nut. It just seems if you have a Zero Fret you loose a lot of adjustment when doing a setup.

LMI was great about returning this one and replacing it with the correct one. Unfortunately I can't get a dovetail joint on the new one so the headblock has to be sent back as well.

I am glad I decided to start with the neck and not the body.

Just read the OPs second post again...yup, wrong neck

I suppose the point is moot now, but I agree with Filppo that this was not a good situation for a zero fret. I like to keep the zero fret as close to the nut as possible. People who aren't used to a zero fret see it out of the corner of their eye and can trick themselves into seeing it as fret 1, suddenly a G chord is fingered as some kind of awful sounding F# frankenchord.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I shall claim full credit for finding the solution to this problem in my unauthorized autobiography.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Good job Tony. Thanks for the help.

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http://www.tinyhouseandland.com

It was nothing. I knew right away when I looked at the pic that something was wrong and that the fit should be more gooder.




Probably not laugh as much....unless a few people, including yourself, step it up to fill the void. Shouldn't be too hard. I'm not that funny usually.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

I think you're funny. . .



. . . Looking.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.