Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:54 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:05 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:04 am
Posts: 768
First name: Peter
Last Name: Fenske
City: Blackburn
State: Lancashire
Country: Uk
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Has anyone used Behlen's waterbased brushing finish? Does it burn in to previous coats like lacquer or does it leave witness lines? Is it easy to use?

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:31 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2177
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
I have not used it but water based coatings do not "melt" together like nitro. Its basically the solvents that make that happen.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.



http://www.brianhowardguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Howard-G ... 3702413493
http://howardguitars.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:39 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 1828
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
Some do, like EM6000.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:55 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:17 am
Posts: 1383
Location: Canada
Barry Daniels wrote:
Some do, like EM6000.

+1 (..... and Ultima before it! Ill-advised statements of "fact" are a plague on our houses!)
Now Behlins, I don't know. (What do specs say??)

_________________
Dave
Milton, ON


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:55 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 3418
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Sorry about the thread hi-jack, I would like also to know how Behlen waterbased urethane performs as well if anyone has used it. I believe I asked about a year ago and got no response.
I presume we are looking at this http://www.behlen.co.uk/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=B640-29806&Category_Code=MIWBF
But I had a little something to add to the last couple of comments about another water based finish.
I'm not touting this as a guitar finish, I've only used it once.
I used EnduroVar on my last build and sanded through while levelling in a few spots on the back after several weeks drying.
The witness lines disappeared when buffed.
I also drop filled with CA after buffing, then levelled again and buffed - looked fine.
I can't find the spots where I did this, even with my magnifiers on.
Perhaps more interestingly, I sanded through right to the Z-Epoxy on the head when attempting to level the finish, at least 4/5 weeks after spraying.
Not having enough lacquer left to spray the whole neck with several coats, I felt had nothing to lose, and sprayed just the head and upper part of the neck shaft, with the rest masked off.
I then removed the tape immediately and sanded gently to tapering the "step" (varying the position of the masking) after each of 9 total new coats to P400 (same as the neck).
Let it dry for a week, sanded up to P1500 and buffed.
I could find no trace of a witness line anywhere. - Go figure?

_________________
“There are two men inside the artist, the poet and the craftsman. One is born a poet. One becomes a craftsman.” - Emile Zola


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:16 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:31 pm
Posts: 1877
First name: Darryl
Last Name: Young
State: AR
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
EM6000 and Ultima are Urethanes?

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:29 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:32 pm
Posts: 3468
First name: Alex
Last Name: Kleon
City: Whitby
State: Ontario
Zip/Postal Code: L1N8X2
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Colin, were you using gloss EnduroVar?

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:40 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2177
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Barry Daniels wrote:
Some do, like EM6000.



According to the TDS, Only for a brief time. recommended re-coat window is 24 hours with out sanding ( that would be the time that the polymers are "open" and will readily bond new coats) and "Complete chemical cure in 100 hours."

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.



http://www.brianhowardguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Howard-G ... 3702413493
http://howardguitars.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:56 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 3418
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Alex Kleon wrote:
Colin, were you using gloss EnduroVar?

Alex

Yes

_________________
“There are two men inside the artist, the poet and the craftsman. One is born a poet. One becomes a craftsman.” - Emile Zola


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:44 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:04 am
Posts: 768
First name: Peter
Last Name: Fenske
City: Blackburn
State: Lancashire
Country: Uk
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Thanks for the info. In that case, can anyone recommend a high gloss finish that can be brushed on with ease and not make you high on the fumes (like nitro - or is that not the case?) and is available in the UK. I'm living in an apartment and have used wiping varnish for my previous two, but I've been too scared to do proper level sanding for fear of sanding through and having to redo it.

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:38 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 3418
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I'm in the same boat. There doesn't seem to be many options or opinions, apart from negative (possibly with good reason) out there.
I've been looking for 4 years without any recommendations for something available in UK, so I'll stick out my neck a bit, just to explore the few possibilities I've found so far.
(Disclaimer - I've only finished 4 guitar, first in an acrylic floor lacquer which I wouldn't use again, next 2 in Truoil - didn't like it)

Last finish I used was EnduroVar, - I found it very forgiving, buffs up well, and seems reasonably tough. I quite like the amber tint, for some woods anyway.
I did see a recommended (spray) schedule to try for finishing instuments from General Finishes "specialists" but can't find at the moment - I based my schedule on that. I see you want to brush, which it is suitable for, but expect more levelling of course.

Other possibles for instruments, in no particular order -
Enduro Water Based Lacquer - an acrylic - see here for one instument finish schedule http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/mandola.htm
Tonetech's offering http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/guitar-paint-and-lacquer/waterborne-guitar-lacquer.html
Belhen's water based instument laquer, which I may try next

Not sold as guitar finishes, but another I've considered is Myland water based products, perhaps the high build lacquer? (they have a reputation for quality, available in 500 ml from ebay)

Obviously, you would be best to do some test panels first on anything you try, but WB is quick to dry and harden - 9 coats in 3 days, a week to dry seems about the norm (for a test at least).
Sorry can't be more help, let me know how you get on.

_________________
“There are two men inside the artist, the poet and the craftsman. One is born a poet. One becomes a craftsman.” - Emile Zola


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:35 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:45 pm
Posts: 1353
First name: Trevor
Last Name: Gore
City: Sydney
Country: Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Colin North wrote:
I'm in the same boat. There doesn't seem to be many options or opinions, apart from negative (possibly with good reason) out there.

It's still hard to go past nitro, Colin, if it's still legal in Scotland. Spay gear and a mask is not that expensive these days and you should be able to spray outside, even in Aberdeen, in summer.

For the apartment dwellers, shellac (or hard shellac) is also hard to beat. When I look at some of the wipe-on oil schedules published, a full FP finish would take much less time.

A finish popular here amongst the non-professional builders is Danish Oil. Not high gloss, somewhat rustic, but looks OK and does the job.

_________________
Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:08 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:04 am
Posts: 768
First name: Peter
Last Name: Fenske
City: Blackburn
State: Lancashire
Country: Uk
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Trevor Gore wrote:
For the apartment dwellers, shellac (or hard shellac) is also hard to beat. When I look at some of the wipe-on oil schedules published, a full FP finish would take much less time.

Of course, I forgot about french polishing. I'll have to teach myself to do it sometime.

Colin North wrote:

I found an article saying Tonetech supplies KTM-9 which has very good reviews. Is that the stuff they're selling under their own name? http://www.prlog.org/10374035-low-voc-w ... h-ltd.html As it's waterbased you could buy it from LMI, but it costs about £30 shipping.

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:43 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 388
Location: Minneapolis
First name: Dan
Last Name: Pennington
City: Brooklyn Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55428
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I've been using a new brush on poly for my banjos-necks and rims. No guitars yet but I plan to soon. Called PolyWhey. I like it a lot. Goes on milky and dries clear. Self levels. Dries in two hours for the next coat. I got it from Rockler. They have semi gloss and flat only. Semi is pretty shiny.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:51 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 3418
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
PeterF wrote:
Trevor Gore wrote:
For the apartment dwellers, shellac (or hard shellac) is also hard to beat. When I look at some of the wipe-on oil schedules published, a full FP finish would take much less time.

Of course, I forgot about french polishing. I'll have to teach myself to do it sometime.
Colin North wrote:

I found an article saying Tonetech supplies KTM-9 which has very good reviews. Is that the stuff they're selling under their own name? http://www.prlog.org/10374035-low-voc-w ... h-ltd.html As it's waterbased you could buy it from LMI, but it costs about £30 shipping.


U-Beaut Hard Shellac can be had from -
RON'S
Achterland 14, 2964 LA Groot-Ammers Holland
Phone: + 31 (0) 184 60 16 77 - Fax: + 31 (0) 184 63 32 09
E-mail: info@rons.biz (preferred method of communication)
Web Site: http://www.rons.biz
Postage about £20 , same price for 2 bottles as for 1 as I remember.

Tonetech offering - don't know if it's KTM9, they used to sell branded KTM9, now changed to this. I'm waiting for KTM10, looks promising.

Yes, importing any supplies from the US can be expensive, and you pay VAT + £8 assessment fee too.
I have done it for things I can't get here, Stewmac stuff, etc - I just now received 3lbs Hot Hide Glue, 192 g bloom strength, cost nearly 3 times the purchase price with postage and customs charges, but still a similar total cost to buying Behlen's here.

_________________
“There are two men inside the artist, the poet and the craftsman. One is born a poet. One becomes a craftsman.” - Emile Zola


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:55 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 3418
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
penndan wrote:
I've been using a new brush on poly for my banjos-necks and rims. No guitars yet but I plan to soon. Called PolyWhey. I like it a lot. Goes on milky and dries clear. Self levels. Dries in two hours for the next coat. I got it from Rockler. They have semi gloss and flat only. Semi is pretty shiny.

A full gloss for instruments is now available apparently if you go direct.
Shame they don't have a distributer in UK (as was requested in the original post)

_________________
“There are two men inside the artist, the poet and the craftsman. One is born a poet. One becomes a craftsman.” - Emile Zola


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:07 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 3418
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Trevor Gore wrote:
Colin North wrote:
I'm in the same boat. There doesn't seem to be many options or opinions, apart from negative (possibly with good reason) out there.

It's still hard to go past nitro, Colin, if it's still legal in Scotland. Spay gear and a mask is not that expensive these days and you should be able to spray outside, even in Aberdeen, in summer.

For the apartment dwellers, shellac (or hard shellac) is also hard to beat. When I look at some of the wipe-on oil schedules published, a full FP finish would take much less time.

A finish popular here amongst the non-professional builders is Danish Oil. Not high gloss, somewhat rustic, but looks OK and does the job.

Please drop in to sample our summer! I think it was last week for 3 days. Which would be laughable if it wasn't true.
I have decent Spray gear and a mask, just don't fancy nitro at the moment, even if you could buy it in UK. (It's available in aerosols but not bulk I believe - VOC regulations)
Danish Oil (which can be variable according to manufacturer) or maybe Liberton's Finishing Oil is a possibility, but both contain Naptha (petroleum spirit) I think, so that's worth remembering.

_________________
“There are two men inside the artist, the poet and the craftsman. One is born a poet. One becomes a craftsman.” - Emile Zola


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:32 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:04 am
Posts: 768
First name: Peter
Last Name: Fenske
City: Blackburn
State: Lancashire
Country: Uk
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Colin North wrote:
I have decent Spray gear and a mask, just don't fancy nitro at the moment, even if you could buy it in UK. (It's available in aerosols but not bulk I believe - VOC regulations)

You can buy nitro in 3.7L cans from behlens.

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:06 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:40 pm
Posts: 32
First name: Glenn
Last Name: Cummins
State: Hampshire
Country: England
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I am in the same boat as finding a hand applied finish suitable for guitars difficult in Britain. I did use Behlen WB urethane to finish my 3rd guitar so here are my thoughts on it.

It is easy to use in the regards that it drys and sands well. It is harder than shellac but not as hard as lacquer.

Brushing was easy and the coats layed on well. But (there's always a but...)

Sanding through coats and revealing witness lines was a problem. Especially on the darker back and sides, not so obvious on the spruce top.

Although it buffed up to a gloss finish it was lifeless looking with a blue tint and made the wood look dull. This alone was enough for me to dislike it.


My first 2 guitars were finished using brushing lacquer which really brings out the beauty of the wood. The trouble with brushing lacquer is that I found it almost impossible to get it on flat and kept sanding through. Frustrating in the least after waiting 4 weeks for it to cure.

French polishing makes for a lovely finish and I can recommend Robert O'Briens online course. But for me it is not robust enough for steel string guitars.

I am currently finishing guitar number 6 by brushing chestnuts melamine lacquer which they advised can be thinned and brushed but I think I am going to have the same problems of getting it on flat.

Not much in the way of positive answers I'm afraid but this has been my experience.

Keep me posted if you find the holy grail.

Cheers.

Glenn.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:00 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 3418
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Glenn. thanks for the opinions, you've saved me that mistake with the Behlen's WB.
Even negative experiences can be useful.
One thing I wanted to ask - did you use shellac under the Behlen's? (you said it was lifeless)

_________________
“There are two men inside the artist, the poet and the craftsman. One is born a poet. One becomes a craftsman.” - Emile Zola


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:30 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 3418
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
PeterF wrote:
Colin North wrote:
I have decent Spray gear and a mask, just don't fancy nitro at the moment, even if you could buy it in UK. (It's available in aerosols but not bulk I believe - VOC regulations)

You can buy nitro in 3.7L cans from behlens.

That's a new product to me - VOC compliant
Doesn't look like old fashioned nitro laquer - ?
MSDS indicates 60-70% acetone, to use that as a thinner and to sand between coats if allowed to dry before recoating. Is that "normal" for nitro?
Directions say -
Quote:
Directions: This is a VOC compliant product. No Reduction is necessary. Stir thoroughly
before and frequently throughout use. Apply in light, even coats of no more than 3-4 wet mils. If
two coats are needed, sand the first coat aggressively with 320 grit sandpaper. Apply the second
coat in a light, even coat of no more than 3-4 wet mils, allow to dry and sanded with 320 grit
sandpaper. All H. Behlen 275 VOC formulations are high solids products, which build very
quickly. Total film build of the entire system, including topcoats, should not exceed 4 dry mills.
Excessive build may lead to poor adhesion, cracking or cold check problems.

_________________
“There are two men inside the artist, the poet and the craftsman. One is born a poet. One becomes a craftsman.” - Emile Zola


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:23 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:45 pm
Posts: 1353
First name: Trevor
Last Name: Gore
City: Sydney
Country: Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Colin North wrote:
Please drop in to sample our summer!

Both my brothers live in Aberdeen, so I do, occasionally! Not exactly Sydney, where it's possible to spray outdoors year round, but the issue is mainly the RH rather than the temp. With the mixes I use I'm OK to spray at anything below 60% RH without additives. I think some of the North American people are spraying at close to zero centigrade, and I'm sure they'll let us know how they do it.

_________________
Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:58 am 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:40 pm
Posts: 32
First name: Glenn
Last Name: Cummins
State: Hampshire
Country: England
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Colin. No I did not use any shellac. If memory serves I followed the instructions which were to seal with a 50/50 varnish / water wash coat.

Instead of lifeless I could say it had no depth, flat looking.

Also forgot to say the blueish tint was only a problem with the darker back and sides. The top was water white.

Cheers.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com