Official Luthiers Forum!

So I have been looking into the manual fret slotting systems (Setwmac, LMI) and it would actually be cheaper for me to buy this table saw after shipping and customs charges and build a jig for it. I hear it is considerably faster with a table saw as well..
I would also use it for other light work such as bridges maybe..



http://www.axminster.co.uk/jet-jet-jts- ... rod208698/


Now, I know it is a 'cheap' hobby style saw, but I would much rather save the money and put it towards a decent bandsaw ( i have a small bench top one at present)

Nearly all budget table saws I've seen have appalling reviews, However this one is apparently quite good..

Would it be accurate enough for fret slotting? Has anyone used it?

Any advice would be great.

If you are to buy a larger Bandsaw, why don't you slot with that? I doubt that a Table saw is justified for cutting just fret slots and a few bridges. Maybe if you were slotting a few hundred boards per year or using the table saw for a multitude of tasks. The bandsaw, in that sense, is a bit more versatile.

Thanks for the reply. You are right, of course. The problem I have is that it will be a long time until I can afford to upgrade my bandsaw to something more 'serious'.
I thought about using my little benchtop one for fret slotting but I'm just not confident it will be accurate enough.

I am just starting out (still on number one, planning number 15 or so!) and currently just need a system that is accurate .

The reason I ask about the table saw is that I have seen one second hand. Do you think it would suffice?

[quote="wtholmwood"
Do you think it would suffice?[/quote]

Yes. get a blade with the proper kerf, build a sled and your in business.

Yes. get a blade with the proper kerf, build a sled and your in business.
[/quote]

+1

I use my cheap tablesaw for much more than my bandsaw.

I agree that with the proper sled and blade you should be OK. As long as the blade will run without any runout. This is not the same runout as tops but a wobble in the blade. Either check with a dial indicator before purchase or take your chances and check fret slot size after you get home. A couple of thou runout will get you into trouble with fret slot size. I would think most likely you will not have a problem. There are cures.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Todd has given great advice on all points--and has restated the very important point of becoming familiar with the tool and respecting it at all times. Small saws can do a great job on many tasks if you set them up precisely and keep them that way, and if you understand their limitations from the start. My saw is small, but has done nice work for me for nearly 50 years. I extended its table capacity by building wings, outfeed rollers, supplemental longer fence, and so forth. However, there have been many times that I've wished for more depth of cut. So, I agree that you can probably find a more versatile saw for an affordable price if you take your time and look for a good used machine.
Patrick

Thanks a lot people,

Lots of good info and sound advice. I will most definitely be extremely careful as I am a bit wary of table saws, having never used one before. I'd also like to keep all my fingers ideally, I've grown quite attached to them over the years.

I have a slightly different take on it, I'd save the money and put it towards a better bandsaw. I have built more than 60 guitars now and have never owned a table saw, and never felt the need for one. There is almost nothing that a table saw can do that a good bandsaw can't. It takes me less than 10 minutes to hand cut the fret slots. Say at six or so guitars a year that's only an hour of my time, with no noise and no risk of finger loss, and having already lost three in an unrelated accident, I don't have that many left to spare.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the accuracy of the sled grooves!This is equally important as the blade stability.

I bought a Ryobi tablesaw, the blade didn't wobble at all, but the sled tracks (I don't know what they're called) actually wandered a little in relation to the blade. The most I could saw accurately was a guitar fretboard. Past that, the track drifted, and the end of the slot drifted off, so it was impossible to slot bass fretboards.

I sold it and bought a Dewalt portable tablesaw. I've cut slots for 9 string bass fretboards with it accurately.

The ryobi was $150, the dewalt was $350. Well worth the difference IMO.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

If you have never used a table saw before you might consider a class on proper set up and use. Woodcraft, trade schools and the like do shop safety/tool use classes often. Kickback is a serious issue and one can get seriously injured from it. Along with losing digits, the table saw is potentially very dangerous. At least buy a good book if classes aren't available in your area.

I agree that the bandsaw is more important for lutherie work but the table saw is very handy for all the reasons Todd mentioned. I just built a form today and was thinking how glad I was to have a table saw to square it up.

I do know a circular blade cuts much smoother than any bandsaw blades I've seen (but I've heard the Lenox Trimaster is pretty smooth but haven't the money to try it).

So what bandsaw blade do you guys recommend for cutting fret slots? I was thinking a woodslicer must be necessary because most bandsaw blade is thicker than fret slot kerf (anywhere from .025" and up, with wider kerf than that due to set). I was hesitant to cut fret slots on a bandsaw because it seems easy to get the setup wrong and ruin a fretboard that way.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

It doesn't have to cut that smooth, after all the fret slot is barely 2 mm's deep. It does need to cut near perfectly true (vertical) and the correct kerf for your particular fretting system. Any 14 inch saw that is well set up will cut slots that are good enough. My saw was the cheapest going- although I modified the blade guides. I just use a thin kerf blade. I think it cuts at or near 0.7 mm's. Just enough to grip the wire but they do need to be glue and clamped to keep them seated.

I have a Craftsman contractor saw...it's good for roughing things, but it's not very accurate. I think it's the run-out in the blade shaft.

I bought a Stew Mac fret slotting blade, built the jig, tested a board, and came out with a 0.030" slot. Measured the blade and it was about 0.022", right on.

I think the wobble in the blade arbor causes it to be unusable for something so precise.

Just my experience. And to be clear, I never expected this say to be that nice, definitely not for finish work.

Miked

I've seen a luthier use one of those Proxxon mini table saws for fret slotting... so that might work. It probably doesn't have the same issue with arbor wobble as the cheaper chinese made contractor tablesaws.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I've seen a luthier use one of those Proxxon mini table saws for fret slotting... so that might work.
??
Just maybe.....

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I like tablesaws. The reviews make that one sound like a lightweight noisy screamer type saw.
I'm with Todd - try to find an older heavier (cast iron table) used saw - probably for less money.
You might also buy a tablesaw book that will give you pointers on what to look for in a saw and ideas for making jigs and tips for working safely.
Tablesaws are versatile tools, and relatively safe when used properly, but it is easy to not recognize unsafe practices until it is too late.

Thanks everyone for your help. I decided not to go with JET model in the end. It lead me to to a lot of research and I now know what I'm looking for. I also visited a guy in his workshop and spoke a lot about table saws. He had an old Startrite saw. Looked at least 25 years old and worked like a dream. He mentioned Fobco, Meddings and Wadkin and a few others as being really solid, reliable machines. I'll wait until I can get something of better quality. Besides, I still don't have a proper workshop space so I've no idea where I'd put the thing.

I looked at the picture again and noticed that it only had one "sled" groove anyway. Two is better for control and stability.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Todd:

More advice the better, especially if gets me thinking about what I actually need as versus what I just like the idea of having..
It's hard when your starting out as there are a million fancy jigs and shiny machines that promise to make me a better woodworker, I find I am constantly battling with this. "if only I had a more expensive camera, I would probably take better photos" etc.

I've also noticed the way tools (and many other things) are marketed with words like 'hobby use' 'DIY use' 'entry level' etc. to make you feel like a cheapskate for not buying something more expensive. Obviously there is often a HUGE difference in quality, but not always from what I've seen..

theguitarwhisperer:

I noticed that and had the same thought as well

Filippo:

I no longer have any doubt that the JET machine would be sufficient for my humble needs, but here's my thinking:
It seems it is possible to get a table saw for between £100 and £200, but I think with a bit of patience I could get something really well built second hand for that money. I'm not looking for a big saw, the one I mentioned seeing in action was no bigger than the JET in table size (in fact a bit smaller) but it was floor standing not bench top. It also had a cast iron table. If possible, I'd like to avoid buying more than one, but I'll keep an open mind.

A lot can be said for having a bench top saw, William. It doesn't take up a dedicated space, you can use it outside, put it in the trunk of your car, build an outfeed table to tackle bigger jobs, etc.
As much as you would like to avoid buying more than one saw, only time will tell. When I first started woodworking, I bought a little 8" table top saw that got lots of use. I never thought I would need anything bigger. Next was a cast iron 10" contracters saw that cut thousands of BF of wood, that my nephew still uses. Now I have a 14" cabinet saw.
My only regret was selling that first saw. I will probably buy another benchtop saw sometime soon because of the reasons I gave, above.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I got by without a table saw for a long time, but I finally got one ( used Craftsman portable contractor) with the intention of moving to a power fret slotting system. I still haven't got the fret saw blade yet, but I think it's about the most used saw in my shop now. Especially for roughing out stuff and jigs. Diablos eat plywood 10x better for 1/2 the price of woodslicers!
It is a little scary. A healthy fear and knowledge of the machine is essential. I always put my game face on and every cut is like game point. EVERY CUT IS GAME POINT.

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Pat

If you go the Tablesaw route be sure to include a stabiliser disc set in your shopping bag. The thin blades do wobble and follow grain even if the spindle has close to zero runout.