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I saw a few news stores about the convention and rosewood and ebony being further restricted. Anyone got any more info?

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

From a search of the CITES database there has been no change to the rosewoods since 2011, and there is no species of Ebony listed. So no changes as of this date, but I have no idea if there are any changes pending.

I got this link from a topic on the subject over at the MIMF.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21759988

Maybe you saw the exact same thing, but I thougth I'd post it anyway.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

All the laws on the planet won't stop the Chinese from taking what they want... They're behind the slaughter of rhinos, elephants and who-knows-how-many other species. They go into other countries and mine and harvest where they have no business, and it matters little to them. Hmmm... sounds vaguely familiar. I guess all emerging markets have their issues with fueling their materialism and arrogant excesses...
At least now the world is more informed as to what is going on, so that there is the knowledge that we are driving flora and fauna to extinction. It's just too bad we don't take the responsibility for it ourselves as a species and be better stewards of our home, the Earth.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Yes, the BBC article was one of the two I read yesterday. Seemed to mention a lot of "Asian" rosewood and I also saw something about "100'a" of species of ebony. That last one has me wondering, didn't even know there were that many individual species of ebony. Of anyone sees a list, please post a link as this will surely effect us.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Like everything if you want to know what is going on check FaceBook...
http://www.facebook.com/cites

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Lance Peck

Well, unless I missed it, their Facebook page doesn't really tell us what's going on with new woods placed on Appendix II (except for Thailand rosewood (Dalbergia cochinchinensis), which it is clearly stated).

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

When they make a new listing they will post the news.

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Lance Peck

The other big news out of the conference, according to Chuck Erikson over on MIMF, is the agreement for implementation of an instrument "passport", to replace(?) the current permit system, for international travel of instruments containing protected species.

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Dave
Milton, ON

A Passport for everything, further segregating the world... I guess people evolve a lot slower than technology.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Today I read that the last convention was from 3 of march to 14 of march this year. to the already about 200 existing species which are under cites control ( in different apenndixes of course) they added 261 more species. Lots of ebony and rosewoods from asia and madagascar. Unfortunatelly I do not have a complete list yet, which species is undergoing which appendix.

What has always confused me (guess I haven't read enough about tree farming) is why you wouldn't farm precious woods like ebony and rosewood. Here in Colorado and other parts of the west a lot of hard and soft woods are farm grown for construction and furniture. Is it very difficult to grow tropical species? Or is it more about not taking the time to learn how to? I just don't get it. Clear cutting is at a minmum out here. They either take naturally fallen trees or selectively harvest. I love exotic woods as much as everybody, but I'd rather not have all my favorite woods go the way of sandelwood.

You're talking about Africa where people are extremely short sighted. They will clear an entire forest (for farmlands I guess) and sell the woods as a means of income. I don't think it ever occurred to them that they could farm it. Also ebony takes very long (like hundreds of years) before it grows to a usable size..

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Yea, guess ebony is like mesquite. Very hard and takes decades to grow to usage sizes... And yes short sided, I guess when your starving it's hard to think about your children let alone your grandchildren or great-grandchildren.

Speaking of durability though... I wonder how mesquite would work for a ebony replacement? Obviously the color is not there, but I've worked with it and it is almost as hard as Ipe. Also, here in the western US it is considered a pest wood. Most of it gets chipped up and sold for charcoal or smoking. Hmm... guess I'll have to try some bridges and nuts, maybe even a fingerboard. I love the idea of using local woods almost as much as exotics.

http://www.bfn.de/0305_cites_holz_cop16.html

I know...wrong language, but you should find this somewhere at you Fishing and Wildlife gouvernment departement or so....

If I understand correctly, these changes take place June 12th (the one that could affect me the most is the moving up to Appendix II of cocobolo, as I am just about to acquire some cocobolo for a build to be exported into the US). Such is life.

I just read on another forum that it applies only to the raw lumber, not to finished products.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

That could have been me... MIMF? I did read from a German government website that indicated it was for raw wood only. Problem is, that to the Lacey Act, it doesn't matter whether it is raw wood or a finished product... in that it is illegal to trade in wood that was at any point in the "chain-of-custody" illegally handled. So, whether one has a cocobolo sides/back set or a finished guitar, one still has to show "due dilligence" that there was no illegality in the history of the wood.

Hmm, by my count there are over 100 ebonies listed in appendix III.

http://www.unep-wcmc.org/cites-listed-trees_501.html

Joe

Thanks for that. These must have been added since I last searched the CITES database. I could find no species of Diospyros listed then. Is interesting that all the listed Diospyros species are from Madagascar. I had no idea there were so many different species of Ebony trees in Madagascar. They are listed in Appendix III, so finished products should be ok, logs, sawn wood and veneer not ok. Date of listing is stated as 22/12/11, which is a bit strange since I searched for Diospyros in the database and checklist and could find nothing.

http://www.cites.org/eng/notif/2013/E-Notif-2013-012.pdf

On page 6 it looks like pretty much all rosewoods and ebonies from Madagascar are to be listed on Appendix II, and granadillo, cocobolo, and Honduran rosewood will be listed there as well. I have a couple of questions:

1. What are the practical implications of a species moving from Appendix III to II?
2. Today just cocobolo from Guatemala and Panama are listed, but it looks like all cocobolo will be on Appendix II going forward. I have some Mexican cocobolo... what's the procedure to get it certified as pre-CITES material? I'm trying to get enough info to decide if it's worth the trouble.

Firs anyone know if all those species of ebony are unique to Madagascar?

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I suspect that most of the Madagascar ebony species are not commercial....either they are too small, or do not produce much black heartwood. In general, the Madagascar ebony species most commonly listed in commerce is D. perrieri.

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John

Hey James. The implications of moving from III to II is that the specified wood species is now controlled regardless of country of origin. For example, with cocobolo at the moment being in Appendix III for Panama and Guatamala populations only, if you have Mexican cocobolo, there are no restrictions. If you have Guatamalan cocobolo, you would need a permit to export/import it. Once cocobolo moves to Appendix II in June, it won't matter where the cocobolo came from, it must be papered to be exported/imported. However, the Appendix II listing will apply only to lumber, not to finished products. So, if you make a guitar out of your Mexican cocobolo, there are no CITES restrictions on exporting/importing that guitar. (You still have to make a Lacey Declaration to import any guitar into the USA - even a plastic one.)