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Hi fellers,
I want to start a new solid build using Mahogany for body and neck.
My local lumberyard no longer stocks American Mahogany and I refuse to pay 50 bucks to have a board shipped to me without seeing it firsthand. My locad place sells 6/4 African for $5.36 / BF.
I've used it for furniture and i seemed rather soft and had a light color.
Questions: does African machine well?
Is (perceived) tone different between the two?
Does the ribbon strip figure imply quater-sawn?
Can I dye it to look like American?
Thanks for advice,
DZ

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Is Honduras still available?
I enjoyed building with it - sounded great, looked good!

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

African mahogany feels much coarser to me, and all the samples I handled are lower density than American. The ribbons are alternating areas of growth rotation (=runout) so you will see them on rift sawn pieces too. You might have a slightly better chance of getting fine texture and comparable density in Spanish cedar.

If you want cheap, sapele tends to be darker, denser and as finely textured as American mahogany. This stuff has even tighter stripey growth but it seems to plane better with less tearout.

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Build log

Do you know the species? American and African mahoganies could be any number of species with very different properties...

Don't know the species; they called the stuff they no longer stock "Genuine" Mahogany.
I reckon I'll go see what the African they have looks like.
Thanks,
DZ

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African mahogany (Khaya) tends to be wooly-fibered, especially when power machining. Fine sanding is usually all that is required to get rid of the fuzzy texture. Both African and American mahogany are light-colored when freshly cut, and darken with age and exposure.
According to the published literature, Khaya averages the same density as American mahogany, but like most woods, it can vary quite a bit from one board to the next.
I have seen an increase in availability of American mahogany over the last few years, possibly because of more logging in Central America. Also, the price is up, which tends to bring more on the market.

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John

I'm building a Les Paul with it now - Honduran neck & African body because I was able to make a 1 piece body from African for about 1/3 the price of Honduran.

The texture is slightly different & so is the color. I see the Honduran as sort of a warm orange brown color & the African as a more pale yellow brown.

There is no reason why you can't stain the African to look like Honduran.

The strangest thing about the African for me is that whenever I sand or machine it without a mask on, I can taste it. It's very bitter. I've never experienced this with any other wood.

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

Without talking specifically by species, there is no telling what the local lumber yards are calling mahogany these days. Their statement that they no longer stock genuine Mahogany shows their ignorance on the subject as African Mahogany(Kahya) is a genuine mahogany as are Bigleaf ( American, Honduran, etc.) Sapele, and Spanish cedar. Typically there are about 4 subspecies lumped into "African" and one of them has a bitter taste similar to Spanish Cedar. I prefer African because it has been very consitant for density and texture over the past 5-10 years, Bigleaf is all over the place on density with some pieces weighing almost twice per cubic foot what other pieces do. Sapele is very consistent as well, I just don't care for the figure as much.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

as far as I know there are 3 different types of Khaya being supplied as African Mahogany...

one of them for sure is the stuff that is kind of stringy and fuzzy when milled...I rather hate that stuff as it is prone to tear outs and such

the other two types (as best I can tell) are far harder and mill very nicely...I've been using a lot of khaya recently as a trim carpenter and it would appear to me as if one of these 2 sub species is typically harder, darker, denser, and the other is lighter in color and density but is of similar hardness

as best I can tell after having researched the subject of just what is mahogany, only the Americas species are genuine (aka real) mahogany...please note I am making a statement based upon botanical terms...there are PLENTY of instances of mahogany being used to describe woods, even that junk from the Philippines..

Thanks Mike,
I'll go take a look at what the lumberyard has. I do remember the fuzzy-ness - I don't want that.
DZ

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Thaks Kevin, I saw the back of your LP. Looks gorgeous. Hopefully I'll find a similar hunk.

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According to Botanical classification The Mahogany family Meliaceae contains at a minimum the following species;

Andiroba - Carapa guianensis
Spanish cedar - Cedrela odorata
Sapele - Entandrophragma cylindricum
Guarea - Guarea cedrata & G. thompsonii
African Mahogany - Khaya spp.
Tigerwood - Lovia trichilioides
Chinaberry - Melia azedarach
Big leaf Mahogany - Swietenia macrophylla ( known as Honduran, although seldom actually from the Honduras)
Australian red cedar - Toona ciliata
Avodire - Turraeanthus africanus

All of these woods are therefore true mahoganies.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahogany

pay attention to the difference between genuine and true....

First thing I see is the notation at the top of that page stating "This article needs additional citations for verification." If you compare this page to the one for Rosewood, you will see that no such notice appears at the head of the text there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood But neither of these articles referenced very much in the way of taxonomical classification of the trees being discussed. A better understanding of the taxonomy may be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meliaceae

From the section of the article directly prior to the one you refer to ""Mahogany" may refer to the largest group of all Meliaceae, the fifteen related species of Swietenia, Khaya and Entandrophragma."

I have never heard of any distinction between "true" and "genuine" Mahogany at any time, anywhere. Those two terms have always been used interchangeably to describe wood that is an actual Mahogany belonging the the family Meliaceae as opposed to timbers marketed here in the states as Mahoagany such as Luan, Meranti, Santos Mahogany and so many more.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Not sure if you can get it in your part of the world, but I've been using some really nice Fijian plantation grown swietenia macrophylla.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

Talk about a coincidence, I just noticed this last night while reading this thread. http://www.amwoodinc.com/productDetail. ... wLgg%3d%3d

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

this is exactly why I at one point spent a lot of time trying to figure out just what "mahogany" is...

look at it this way...the rise of use of Khaya came about when the Swietenia's started becoming scarce...i.e. Khaya is a substitute...while similar, I for one find it an inferior product..

http://www.gaskellguitars.com/downloads/90.html

I'll stick to my views on just what 'mahogany' is...to me calling Khaya "mahogany" is like calling Tasmanian Blackwood Koa...they are related, but not the same...calling Khaya African Mahogany is surely acceptable in my view as that nomenclature defines it as exactly what it is...problem is, as I noted above, there are 3 types of Khaya being supplied and one doesn't know exactly what one is getting until it is delivered...

I think the big problem here is the overuse of the word mahogany...how do you feel about the concept of calling all rosewoods just 'rosewood'??? looking at the history of the use of the word mahogany, I think one can properly infer that only the swietenia's are "genuine" and anything else is an imitation...

Honduras mahogany itself varies quite a bit. The color can be anything from a light straw brown to a medium dark brick red. It can be very hard, or soft and fuzzy.

FWIW before WWII, African (Khaya) and American mahogany were used interchangeably, with African often being considered the better of the two. IME, typical examples of either type look pretty much the same. Regardless, they are very closely related, and I've heard it argued that they should be in the same genus.

If any botanist wants to chime in, now would be a good time.

I prefer the Honduran mahogany over the African. Actually, my favorite is Cuban, but I don't have the benefit of being in south Florida after a hurricane.....

With that said, the Khaya is a perfectly acceptable substitute for Swietenia macrophylla.
Just my experience, but I've always considered the Honduran to "age" in a more predictable manner.
Overall stability seems to be better with Honduran, but then again perhaps that's simply a blanket statement due to my more limited experience with the Khaya.

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Always have plenty of sandpaper; it's rough out there!

Sorry for the late reply-
Due to the cost of shipping unseen and perhaps wrongly identified Mahogany,
I've decided to use local lumber for my next several builds.
I got a nice stack of Walnut, Sycamore, Chinaberry, Mesquite, Pecan, Cherry, and Hackberry to play with.
All from a local sawmill. Iv'e never machined Pecan before, but it may be hard enough for a fretboard.
Thanks for discussing the various Mahogany species.
Dan

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You know the difference between a wood dealer and a used car dealer?
The used car dealer knows when he's lying to you.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

Now you guys have me wondering - does anyone know what "royal mahogany" is. I'm a newbie, and it's one of the first sets I brought (very economical as I recall), it's finishing quite nicely in my opnion and I really like the look. I also have a set of sides that I just recently bent that was labeled "African mahogany" and it is very fuzzy, not at all like my other set. For necks I picked up a piece of "mahogany" at the local lumberyard that appeared pretty close to quatersawn, so I grabbed it. I have no idea what type of mahogany it is. I'm so confused, but I appreciate the discussion. Thanks.

I dunno. while all that you guys asy may be techincally correct, when I buy Mahogany, it better be S. macrophylla or S. mahoganii.


All others are imposters.

Andiroba is sometimes called Royal Mahogany. It is a fair amount harder than Honduras mahogany and has found a use for flooring. With the advent of carbide tooling and the depletion of the worlds timbers many species that were formerly avoided are now successfully milled and marketed. I would think it would make a nice guitar.

Andiroba/royal mahogany:

It is also denser. For that reason, I would not use it for necks, but backs and sides are OK. The smell is quite different from genuine mahogany, and IMHO on the disagreeable side.
I think more and more of it is being passed off as genuine mahogany, so be forewarned. If it seems a little too dense or stinky, it probably ain't real.

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John