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Today I started bending the binding for my first two. One will get ebony, the other tiger maple. So far, I've bent one piece close and broken three.

The maple seems to bend easier than the ebony, and it looks like as long as i soak it first in boiling water I might be able to get this done. The ebony seems to be another story. This is my first attempt to bend ebony, so I am pretty far down on the learning curve. But, I would like to get this done, otherwise I'll go with plastic binding just to keep the project going.

So, any advice on bending ebony binding? What I have to work with is an electric skillet for boiling water, and a bending pipe made from a sink extension heated by a heat gun.

Any advice much appreciated!

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

How thick are you trying to bend it?

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Pat

Are you using any backing for support?

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Pat

Bend hot, use little moisture, and tape your bindings all together (including side purfling assuming you are using it). Taping the binding together is a major help IMO. Don't boil the maple. Just lightly spritz before bending or bend dry. Too much moisture in figured maple leads to breaks where figure runs out.

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Aaron Craig

I had better luck bending tiger maple with little water, when it was soaked it tended to blow out on the outside of the bend. The most important thing for me was heat, getting it hot enough. I bent bocote and tiger maple both almost completely dry.

I do have to say I'm new at this too and I think you'll just get a feel for it. The way I described the bending action was it's almost like you want to bend just with the weight of your hands, rather than to pull it down over the pipe. If you get the wood to the right temp it will just tell you it's ready. I found it to be kind of a fine line between the right temp and burning though so be careful. Once you get it too hot it seems to harden the wood in whatever position it was in, as well as scorching the surface. What I was told is flame or tiger maple has run-out in the grain of the wood, which leads to difficulty bending it. Essentially this means the grain fibers run across the bias of the narrow edge of the wood which gives it it's figure, but also gives the wood lots of weak spots where cracks will run from one face to the other.

I thought I read somewhere that ebony bends fairly easy once you get it to the right temp, but like I said I'm new and may be mixed up with something else.

Thanks for the feedback. To answer your questions, first of all I am only using the pieces, no side purflings. I purchased the pieces, either from lmi or StewMac, can't remember which right off. And I am not using a backer strip, don't have one at this point.

So far, I broke the maple once when wet, once when dry. Same for the ebony, cracked it dry then broke it in another place when wet. I'll keep the runout in mind, thanks. But the maple does seem to be softer and more maleable when soaked. I'll try again with light moisture, but it just seems to take forever to heat the strips on the bending pipe.

For one thing, the ebony didn't want to bend at all on my pipe, but worked better standing the heat gun on end and holding the piece in the flow of hot air. Seemed to be the only way to get it hot enough, and that after soaking it in boiling water. And yes, that pipe sizzles when water hits it. Not hot enough to turn the chrome blue, but as hot as I can get it.

Does a backing strip help that much? Come to think of it, I may have a long strip of shim stock that might work.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

did it sizzle and cling to the surface or does it ball up and dance on the surface? I found it was hot enough when the water danced on the surface rather than just steaming away.

here's a link to stewmac's bending guide, they recommend only spritzing figured wood too. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for_Bending_sides/Bending_Iron.html?tab=Instructions#details

wetting it completely may make it seem softer but it will allow the fibers to separate more easily, kind of like a flaky fish. It seems counter-intuitive, but I didn't get good bends until I laid off the water. Maybe your iron just isn't getting hot enough, I used a blow torch jammed in the end of a pipe and it got too hot actually.

I bend both these woods on a hot pipe, especially Ebony. I thickness them to 1.8 mm's, no more. You do have to treat the two woods differently. The Ebony I soak in water for a couple of hours. You really have to let the heat do it's work and try not to be too impatient. You can also try wrapping a little aluminium foil around the binding. That usually helps contain both the heat and moisture, although I have bent them successfully without. Just be aware that the foil gets seriously hot, watch your fingers!
I bend them as singles and without a backing strip.

Ebony bends like butter as long as it is not too thick and it is very well heated. If you start applying pressure too soon it will definitely snap like nothing else

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Build log

I can't imagine a heat gun would get the pipe hot enough. Consider getting a blow torch and use some kind of a baffle at the end of the pipe to hold in heat. I like to bend binding with the temp around 350 deg. F. At this point a water spritz on the pipe will immediately steam off. I use a laser gun thermometer to tell the temp. The temp will be hotter near the blow torch and less at the end, obviously, so I move back and forth on the pipe to adjust temp if necessary.

Move slow with moderate pressure and don't stop moving or you might get kinks. Taping and bending all binding strips together will make it less likely to break and also save time.

Boiling water seems a bit overkill. When you take it out of the boiling water it will get cold within seconds. I just spritz the whole piece right before bending then spritz at the hot point just after removing from the pipe. Hold the shape while spritzing so it doesn't bend back.

Different woods may act differently so you may have to adjust your technique for each wood. Figuring out what works is just trial and error and your technique will improve with time. In general though, it seems you don't have enough heat and are using too much pressure and/or trying to move too fast.

OK so far so good! I am wetting the maple on each side, one small section at a time, with a wet brush. After that, mostly dry. Going very slow, and it is working. I am able to feel where the wood wants to break, and so far I've been able to catch it and work around it. One piece left, and its the last one, so keeping my fingers crossed.

After practicing this technique on the maple, I'll try it on the ebony after some soaking. Wish me luck!

PS: The thickness of the maple is about .085", the ebony is around .079".

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Go to a heating contractor and get some scraps of sheet metal to use as backing strips. Ebony is hard to bend especially if it has any run out. I manage to break at least 1 strip per guitar. As stated above, sand thin, .070" to .080" maximum thickness, use all the heat you can get, and soak the ebony. After the ebony is hot enough it will bend quite well but if there is run out may break I have CA glued the pieces back together if the shape has been established before the break or if it is a minor split.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

I can’t add much to what has been said here other than I seem to have more trouble with binding than I do sides. I believe it is because the narrow binding feels more floppy than a 4 inch side so I tend to want to apply too much bending force too soon. You really have to wait until you feel the wood relax. Also I have used a tape measure as a backing strip for bindings in a pinch.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Supersoft seems to help as well.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Water isn't going to soak into ebony and make it flex in a matter of hours or proboly years. Heat is what makes it plastic. A heat gun is not going to get it hot enough i'm sure. You need it really hot and keep moving it a little at a time. Most of the time binding breaks due to run-out, or being too thick from my opinion. Taping multiple pieces together edge-to-edge can help keeping the pressure even and saves alot of time also bending all 4 at the same time. Ebony is one of the hardest; Bloodwood is another killer. Good luck with it.

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Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

Hey, thanks for all the help! I managed to get all my maple done today, so that one is well on the way. I started on another piece of ebony, and broke it. So I am down to my last 4 pieces.

The next one I tried went better. My heat gun may not be hot enough, but for now it is what I have to work with. Dipping the piece in boiling water seems to help warm it up and spread out the heat, which helps a little. Not much, but maybe just enough. This piece is almost done, just a bit more on the lower bout section. It is taking a long time, the ebony just doesn't want to take heat like the maple. Is it something about the grain? I have wondered if the heat flows through it quicker, dissapating, or maybe it is just so much tighter it acts like an insulater. Any thoughts?

Either way, I found if I go real slow (45 minutes per piece maybe, or even longer) it does bend. And of course, even after getting it wet, all the water is gone from the piece before it gets hot enough to bend. So that is more of a way to warm the piece away from the small spot on the bending pipe.

So if I do manage to break another piece before it is finished getting bent, is it possible to salvage it? Maybe finish bending anyway, and use a scarf joint or some such? I would hate to lose the time (and money) to order more material.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I agree with the others that you should use a backer to bend these.

Have you also tried Super Soft? Might help you out. The stuff works wonders.

You could always splice if need be. If you do a good enough job I could see it not being visible. Especially with Ebony.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

The water is there to turn into steam. That's what helps with the bending.
Once the Ebony is refusing to bend: Stop! You will need to leave it for a day or so, probably so it takes on more moisture.
It will bend a little easier then. The more you drive out the moisture, the more brittle the wood becomes. Ebony is brittle enough. Did you try the foil? Try it on one of your broken pieces and see if it makes a difference.
There is no law that says your binding should not be 4, 5 pieces or even more. Ebony is very forgiving when it comes to doing joints in binding.

That's a great point. I have had several complete breaks on dark woods, like Cocobolo, and spliced them together, with no visible joint.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

SUCCESS!!!

I must admit, yesterday was as low a day as i've had, and I thought I'd finally run into a wall I could not get over. Nothing worked, including the backer strip.

But today, i gave it one last try. I got the piece wet, wrapped it in aluminum foil, then used the backer strip. Started with some of the broken pieces until I got a feel for it, and it actually worked pretty good.

The bindings for the back will be two pieces each because of breakage, and there are several small cracks and splits. I saved my last new piece for last, it will go on the top. This was the best one of the bunch.

Now that I've gotten good at it, I wouldn't mind bending some more. But that can wait, I still have plenty more obstacles to cross.

So a big thanks again for all the help on this, without the good suggestions I'd be buying me some plastic.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Isn't it great when things finally come together, makes all the failures worth the time spent learning a new skill.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

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