Official Luthiers Forum!

Is it normal for the shop to be dusty from its day to day operation? If so are there any inexpensive way of keeping that under control?

I have serious issue with dust control but have no money to invest in a dust collector or have pipings installed. In particular sanding is the worst and none of them have any way of keeping that dust from floating around in the air forever. Space is an issue so I can't build a downdraft sanding table since I wouldn't have a place to put it.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Air filters can help considerably. In the cabinet shop I run a few units similar to this one all day long to keep airborne dust to a minimum.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5489

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I have the air filters also. They certainly helped to collect the fine dust. Figure your cubic air space. You need to a filter that can filter that 10 times an hour.
My filter uses a double filtration system. First is a flat filter then a bag. get as small as you can in filtration. I have a .5 micron

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Sounds like I need to make a sizable investment... I tried a small home air filter and it did absolutely nothing.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Downdraft tables are usually considered a priority for collecting sanding dust at the source. Have you considered building a "benchtop" model?
Probably not as effective as a dedicated cabinet-style downdraft, but it would allow you to place on bench when needed, and store elsewhere when not in use. Can't say how well they work, since I have no experience with them. But maybe it's better than nothing at all.

Another idea (I got from visiting someone else's shop) is converting a section of your current workbench into a downdraft. If your bench is constructed such that the area beneath is open, it's a simple matter of enclosing that section to create a true downdraft unit.
No extra space needed since your bench was already taking up the space. Of course, if you were cramming everything under the bench for storage in the first place.....

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Always have plenty of sandpaper; it's rough out there!

i saw an article in american woodworker magazine where a plain old air filter for a home central air conditioner was mounted to a box fan. It was hung from the ceiling and supposedly worked quite well although the filter needed to changed often.

I am aware of that too, but I have trouble finding any central AC filter in Taiwan, because nobody has central AC. They have those filters designed to go over a window/split unit and I wasn't sure how those worked. I never got around to building a filter box and I probably should.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Dust collection is a sizable investment, like you say, but so is health care. Would you rather spend a few hundred bucks now or buy a new lung later in life? Think about it as insurance.

First, read up on the Bill Pentz website. www.billpentz.com. Go to his dust collection page.

The first thing you should buy is a good cartridge respirator like the 3M 7500 series. They make different sizes but medium fits most people. Make sure it fits well. Get several P100 filters for dust, and some organic vapor cartridges for finishing. Wear the respirator at all times when making dust and until all dust has settled in your shop (usually several hours). I even wear mine when hand sanding.

Next, get a couple of box fans and create cross ventilation in your shop. Place one fan blowing out a window and on the other side of the shop place a fan blowing air in through another window or door. Leave these fans on for several hours after you stop making dust.

Then, get a large room HEPA air purifier. I have [url]this one[/url] by Hunter and it works great. I leave it running 24/7 on setting 1 or 2 and crank it up to 3 when I'm making dust.

Then get the air filter that B.Howard mentioned.

All of the above is in order from least to most expensive. Ideally you would have all of these and used together as a system.

If you really want to get serious about dust collection....

Get a Dylos air quality monitor, the 1100pro version. You will know exactly what your air quality is and when it would be safe to take off your respirator.

Get a cyclone dust collection system like the ClearVue 5hp, or Oneida 3hp+ to get 800cfm's at your machines. Or start out with a 1.5hp blower type dust collector upgraded with a Wynn Environmental cartridge filter.

At the very least you should have a respirator and cross ventilation in your shop, and keep your respirator on until the dust is gone. But, since you cant see the fine dust that buries deep in your lungs and causes the most harm you wont know your air is clean without a monitor, so best to leave your mask on all the time the day you are making a lot of dust. Keep a clean shop so you don't stir up a lot of dust. Just walking around in my shop makes my air quality monitor go up a few hundred counts. Dust and mop often. Good luck.

I know the new lung vs. a few thousand dollar in investment but right now I simply do not have money to invest in a system since nearly all of my income goes into rent. The issue is having to dust the shop everyday though, because as soon as I clean something in a shop within 2 days the surface is covered in a thick layer of dust. I've been looking into a dust mask. I have used 3M's N95 dust mask but unfortunately it doesn't last very long. I need something that lasts more than a day.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Then get the 3M 7500 respirator or similar. They aren't expensive. Also, they are more comfortable, fit better, and are easier to breathe in than the paper masks. Furthermore, you can get P100 filters for the respirator for near 100% capture of fine dust as apposed to only 95% for the N95 masks.

Here you go:
http://www.amazon.com/3M-Facepiece-Resp ... pd_cp_hi_0
http://www.amazon.com/3M-2091-P100-Part ... s_indust_8

Yep. Or don't sand. I'm on my way to practically eliminating sanding from my building process, replacing it with blades, scrapers, rasps and files that tend to produce less of the fine particles that stay in the air for a long time. Sandpaper is one of the most versatile tools around, but there are less dusty (and often faster) alternatives for most things it's used on.

Even if I had a dust collector, I'd avoid using it as much as possible just because I don't like loud machine noise. Not to mention the space it would take, when I'm already so cramped that the only way I accomplish anything is by clever planning and very flexible muscles.

I do wear N95 masks when making dust indoors, but they last a long time if it's not a suffocating cloud of fine particles.

For shell cutting, I keep everything wet so the dust never goes into the air in the first place. Unfortunately, that doesn't work so well with wood

The noise is another consideration too, if I kept the dust collector running all the time the neighbors will complain because I am about 2 feet from the neighbor.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

you could probably build your own downdraft table cheaply, based on these pictures, or just buy some of the perforated top plates. but perforated sheet metals are available.
i try to sand outdoors when i can(which is rare). to me, the router is by far the worst mess; i don't have a collector.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=21488

It's very difficult to eliminate sandpaper and to obtain a very flat surface for a full on gloss finish. I simply can't get the surface good enough without applying a huge amount of finish coats. I can get it good (with scrapers) but not to modern day expectations. If you go for the more organic finish liked by Violin makers, then things are relatively easy.
That's the bit that I envy. Even the lute maker Robert Lundberg received complaints when he turned to a more historical method. He was no slouch as a maker either.

My shop has a small outdoor area but for some reason the wind always blow inward, so any dust, or vapors I make from my work always blow INTO my shop and my neighbor's door. I wish there's something that can be done about it but it would require changing nature since its located right at the hillside. It's amazing how far those dust can travel.

That's the thing about making guitar too, the bar is so high and people judge your work based on how it looks rather than how it sounds, since most of it are myths anyways. Somehow shiny things gets people to want it. I think someone has said that the market is driven by fear and greed, not logic.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

in regards to the deep, ultra gloss automotive type finish that has become the standard, i agree. that aspect is a bit goofy. but back in the '50s, Fender and others didn't want their guitars to look like wood, they wanted them to look "space age"....and for that, those of us today without professional painting shops suffer for it

Down draft tables and air filters are 2 different things.
The "BAD" dust is the real fine under 1 micron . A down draft may get the 5 micron but the real fine stuff you need the air cleaner. A box fan and air filter is about as good as tying a rag around your face. People , Real equipment is not cheap and when it comes down to it , your health is worth the investment. If you think scrapers won't produce the fines ,. well think again . I agree that sanding will create more but when you work wood , you will create dust.
Dust collection should be in every shop. It isn't just about the dirt it is about your health.
Cheap may cost you more than you know.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

20 minutes with a piece of sandpaper and you can be covered in dust. I've never had that happen with a sharp scraper!
How much of the fine dust does a scraper or a dovetail saw produce?

Scrapers still make quite a bit, especially on softwoods. Not as much as sandpaper, but certainly enough to warrant a mask when surfacing a whole guitar plate. But since the dust production rate is lower than sandpaper, and wood removal rate is faster, it's a lot less total dust production. Hand planes make a surprisingly large amount when thinning plates as well, but still a lot less than any other thinning method I know of.

My dozuki saw, which should be pretty similar to a dovetail, doesn't produce a lot of floating dust as far as my nose can detect. Not the most accurate instrument for detecting fine particles of course, but I don't bother with a mask for most hand sawing jobs (although I would with cocobolo, since it's such a potent sensitizer and I don't want to lose my ability to work with it). I hope I'm not being under-paranoid


Yeah, I don't do the ultra-flat mirror finish style, so it may indeed be necessary to do some sanding before finishing for that. But that shouldn't involve much material removal if you've already scraped it almost-flat, and should be doable outside. If it's windy, just close the door, and sweep away the dust when you're done before you open it.

Yes, I think this is the bottom line.

The Stellas I worked on didn't have a space age finish, in fact many of them are quite rough and the finish is probably less than a micron thick, but they do sound great.

It may look like I am disregarding everyone's advise and that I have no intention of fixing stuff, but please cut me some slack. Right now I have exactly 50 dollars to spend on anything, and I can maybe spend that amount each month on something other than food, rent, and utilities, as well as essentials (paint, sandpapers, etc.) to actually do my business. Until I get my first commission there is just no way I can afford to buy any expensive solutions without selling any other tools I have (which would give clean air but no ability to actually work). Furthermore professional dust control solutions are surprisingly difficult to find in Taiwan, with stores selling all kinds of gadget with outrageous claims and prices, but not really solving anything. Most of them are designed for residential use and they don't even make any difference when used in a shop.

As for submicron dusts, there are more of them outside than inside... the environment here is very dirty.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

well, at least to me, this has been a very welcome thread.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

If finances are very limited, you do what you can. That probably means using hand tools rather than power tools, scrapers rather than sandpaper. If you have to sand, try and limit it to outdoors or wet sanding. Decent face mask when necessary.
Pretty much all that can be done.
Anyway, Strad lived until he was 90 or so. Not an air filter in sight. . . . I know, probably one of the few lucky ones.

Me too. I have a workbench build up outside under a porch. I might hand sand a few things inside just to touch up something but otherwise it's planes, scrapers and chisels inside and all sanding outside. The wind does a wonderful job of removing dust

I use Ken Everette's trick of taking a box fan and putting a filter on the intake. Cheap and easy. Also when you sand put one by your project and turn it on high. It is not a down draft table but will pick up a lot of the fine dust.

EddieLee

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EddieLee